Romani: Mashkar le gadjende leski shib si le Romeski zor

Top 2. Mar 31, 2001 4:37 PM

» rkhen - Re: Romany loan words in Scots

Hi, Andy.

I'll be. I've used "scran" myself, and never suspected it was anything but indigenous Scots. Unlike "kushti," for example, which doesn't look Scots, scran, barrie and radge could easily pass for "native."

Incidently, I'll bet that "gadge" originally came from "gadja/gadje," meaning non-Rom person or people, and was either used ironically at first, like some black Americans call fellow blacks "Negroes," or was picked up directly from Rom speakers and generalised unknowingly.

Very interesting point, Andy. Thanks for stopping by.

-- posted by rkhen

Top 3. Aug 2, 2001 9:00 AM

» KhaosGoblin - Re: Romany loan words in Scots

In response to message posted by andysilva:

its amazing how many southerners who have watched a couple of episodes of 'only fools and horses' are convinced that romany words like kushti (good), Mush (man, bloke, geezer), Minj (vagina),Chor (to steal), Chavi (child) or wonga (money) are east end slang rather than part of an actual language.
Then again I would love to ask an expert on Latin and medical terminology about dromomania, and obsession with travel and the Romany Drom meaning road or travel.
Hickory, dickory dock? I don't see the link to Romany words Yack or yeck, Dui and Trin or Dwin (1,2 and 3) there though?

-- posted by KhaosGoblin

Top 4. Aug 10, 2001 7:08 PM

» rkhen - Re: Re: Romany loan words in Scots

Hi Spikey,

Street language will do that to you. Traditionally it's viewed as limited and impoverished, which of course is a ridiculous hypothesis. Unlike standard speech, street lingo is undisciplined, with no "authorities" to tell speakers how to fill gaps or where and when to borrow words. As a result, it tends to draw on wonderfully diverse sources, which in turn makes it so expressive (and contagious).

As for hickory, dickory, dock, as a non-Rom speaker I can't answer that one. However, I got the information from a source that I trust. I must say that the examples you cite suggest a link, though as you point out, they don't establish one. I suspect it boils down to two things: the incredible diversity of Rom traditions, and centuries of being recited by non-Rom speakers. (You should see how far some alleged First Nations words have travelled in English and French!)

Thanks for the interesting points, Spikey.

-- posted by rkhen

Top 5. Jan 31, 2004 7:58 AM

» RayBell - Re: Re: Re: Romany loan words in Scots

In response to message posted by rkhen:

Many Lowlanders are completely unaware how much Gaelic is used by them... for instance "slapper" and "Braw" are Gaelic in origin... This is partly because most Scots are ignorant of Gaelic, and because there's been so much propaganda and rubbish spoken about it (it would have been spoken over most of the Lowlands).

I was wondering though, how much Romany is in Scotland's older language. I don't really know. I know "radge" well enough, and was interested to find in Dwelly's dictionary "Raideachas" (rajuchus) which probably comes from it. I'm told Shelta in Ireland is a mix of their Gaelic with Romany and English.

"Radge", "Gadgie", "Cooshtie" - I know all of these well enough. I ken "gadgie" as just meaning "guy" and/or "boss" - nothing to do with non-Gypsy, but that's how much it's changed.

p.s. Hickory Dickory Dock is probably of Welsh origin. There's a lot of old words used for counting sheep in parts of Scotland, and Northern England which have been proven to be linked to Welsh...

-- posted by RayBell

Top 6. Jan 31, 2004 8:02 AM

» RayBell - Re: Re: Re: Romany loan words in Scots

In response to message posted by rkhen:

hickory, dickory, dock
Hae a keek at this...
Sheep counting,
http://www.slaidburn.org.uk/counting_she...

"dick" features a lot in it. must be these farmers.

-- posted by RayBell