Wer güet schmiert, fàhrt güet: Hope Rises on the Upper Rhine
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- biogardener
- rkhen
- biogardener
- rkhen
- bossel
- rkhen
- biogardener
- rkhen
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» biogardener - Das Reich der Mitte
That is what Germans call the region, das Reich der Mitte, and here is the historical background which Robert didn't have time to tell us about.When Charlemagne, literally Charles the Great, was crowned emperor by the pope, the empire (Reich) was supposed to last 1000 years. As a matter of fact, Hitler considered himself Charlemagne's successor and that is why he called the region he ruled the Reich (empire) which was short for "The Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation." (Das heilige Römische Reich deutscher Nation)
As it was, Charlemagne's empire collapsed after his death. It was divided among his three sons. One got France, the other Germany, and the weakest one got the empire of the middle (das Reich der Mitte). Middle kingdoms always get squeezed from all sides, so that is what happened to Elsace-Lorraine, it kept getting swallowed up by one neighbor or the other. Sort of like Poland kept getting swallowed by its surrounding neighbors frequently.
The result is always a richness of language. The people living in the area have to be prepared for any political takeover and historically have been able to handle several languages more easily than the people living in the rest of France or Germany. And of course, they speak French with a German accent and German with a French accent.
The more knowledgeable French-Canadians frequently ask me if I come from that region, because I speak French with a German accent.
-- posted by biogardener
» rkhen - Thanks for that illuminating background, Traute.
Thanks for that illuminating background, Traute. Alsace-Lorraine and Luxembourg are among my favourite places; you can _feel_ the history there. To this day, the capital city of Luxembourg (also called Luxembourg; or rather the nation is really the city and its "terroir") looks frozen in time from a distance. It's a medieval fortified hill city, complete with wrap-around fortifications, turrets, and gates, and its profile hasn't changed signficantly in centuries. The old "moat," actually a deep and broad manmade canyon that was never filled with water, is now one of the world's most beautiful parks, encircling the entire city.One of the most moving experiences I had during the time I lived in Europe was following a series of tiny, hardly noticeable signs to a German military graveyard in the countryside outside the city of Luxembourg. The WWII headstones inside bore names from a good dozen nations, which is a side of the Wehrmacht that citizens of former Allied nations seldom consider. As for the WWI section, it was simply a single mass grave, about thirty feet square, overgrown with ivy and topped with three Maltese crosses. Most of the men buried there had been reduced to random bits by the joy of trench warfare, so the German Army gravedigging detail just buried them there in one big grave. The cemetery was tucked into an almost invisible corner at the bottom of a steep hill, at the end of a tranquil residential street of houses about three centuries old. Standing there, with the breeze and the songbirds providing the only sound, brought up a welter of emotions, not the same as those that the Commonwealth cemeteries inspired, but just as profound.
Like I said, you can feel the history of that area all around you.
-- posted by rkhen
» biogardener - Graveyards are parks
Graveyards to a German, and I am not thinking of political boundaries now, are parks in which we visit with the departed, in which we learn history, a history which will hopefully help us to understand the present and to prevent us from repeating the mistakes of the past.After WWII, we lived in a little village for 3 years. One of my favorite spots was the little cemetary, overgrown with wildflowers. I learned to draw flowers from the ones I took home, and I can still draw them from memory.
In those three years I went to school in one of Germany's most beautiful fortified cities with an imperial residence, one of the few which was never touched by a single bomb. Goslar lies at the foot of the Harz mountains. That is where witches dance on top of the highest mountain, the Brocken. Every mountain and every rock is embued with mythology. I learned then how history and mythology influence the thinking and the dialect of a region. Only in small villages were dialects spoken in the forties and fifties, and today, the younger generation understands English better than the regional dialect. Within twenty years, I predict that dialects will be taught in schools as foreign languages or else they will be lost to us forever.
Germany was probably the last European country to develop a unified language which we call Hochdeutsch (High German) in contrast to the dialects of the low countries which we call Plattdeutsch (platt meaning flat or low), because Hochdeutsch was mainly derived from the dialects of the northern half of Germany. The dialects of the southern half of the country are not even related. I have listened to them for hours in the pubs of southern Germany and I have yet to recognize a single word. I have no such problems in the north, because the dialects have many similarities to English, and also because I have studied Medieval languages.
I have written about the creation of the German language which is now spoken in all German-speaking countries in my article, The Poetry of Language, Luther. You won't find that information in any book. I researched it for my PhD thesis which did not get written because I was disabled before I got around to it.
-- posted by biogardener
» rkhen - It is truly unfortunate that local languages are dying at such a
It is truly unfortunate that local languages are dying at such an appalling rate. There's a World Languages article on that problem coming up.You and I have already corresponded on this topic via private e mail, Traute, but for the sake of visitors, I'd like to point out that there are two "High Germans," and with only an incidental link between them. Usually, when people refer to High German, they mean standard or official German (Hochdeutsch). However, the term Oberdeutsch, which is also often translated as High German, refers to a whole family of dialects from the highlands. These dialects, which include Elsassisch, Schwytzertüütsch, and many others, aren't necessarily more "correct" than Low German (Plattdüütsch); they just come from mountainous regions.
Again, I'm pointing this out for the sake of visitors who might be confused by the two "High" Germans; I've heard people refer to any non-standard dialect as "Low German," even the Swiss dialect, which is about as high as you can get! But Low German is the opposite of Oberdeutsch, not Hochdeutsch.
Is there a single encompassing term for all the non-Hochdeutsch dialects, Traute?
-- posted by rkhen
» bossel - rob
it gets really confusing if you go into language history.for 'althochdeutsch' (old high german) is also no standard language, but the geographical name for upper (?) & middle german (ober- & mitteldeutsch) dialects of ~800 - 1200.
while 'mittelhochdeutsch' (middle high g., ~1200-1500) was a standard language in upper germany at first, but after 1250 different local standards took over. 'mittelniederdeutsch' (middle low g.) had a longer life as a standard in northern germany due to the hanse.
AFAIK, there's no all encompassing term for all dialects, they're usually just referred to as 'dialekt' or 'mundart', which are simply the german words for dialect.
-- posted by bossel
» rkhen - Wow!
Wow! That's a complex situation. No wonder German speaking peoples generally cleave to Standard German in writing, regardless of their native spoken dialect. I've generally been impressed with the willingness of, say, the Swiss and the Alsatians, to accept Standard German without complaint. Now I see why. Open that can of worms, and you'd be arguing for centuries.Thanks for clearing that up, Bossel. It's amazing that such a relatively small stretch of territory enfolds so many linguistic traditions.
-- posted by rkhen
» biogardener - what is important
It is sad that people do not value their heritage until they have lost it. The younger generations are more concerned with learning good English than with understanding their mother tongue.In all the years that German philology was taught at the University of Manitoba, only two people got graduate degrees in it. I am one of them and the other one was the professor who supervised my thesis. Now both of us are retired and no one will ever teach philology here again. There is no demand for it.
BTW, I have never seen Oberdeutsch translated with anything but Upper German in any reference book. Only on the internet have I found it translated with High German. The mistake was probably first made by someone who has no background in philology and translated it incorrectly. Then others copied the error.
Unfortunately, webmasters do not have to demonstrate their credentials before publishing, and no one can stop them from disseminating erroneous information. When it comes to reading webpages, it is a matter of 'buyer beware.'
-- posted by biogardener
» rkhen - I entirely agree with you about the importance of preserving lin
I entirely agree with you about the importance of preserving linguistic heritage. Losing a language means losing the greater part of your culture, a fact too often overlooked. Our forebears understood this, which is why they took brutal measures to prevent children from minority cultures (Doukhabors, aboriginals, Ukrainians, etc, etc) from learning their parents' language.As for the confusion over the two High Germans, I have often seen High German used as the opposite of Low German, albeit usually in the popular press. However, Webster's Dictionary uses it that way in etymological notes, or it did when I was at university. As I mentioned before, I've often heard "Low German" used to describe any tradition other than Hochdeutsch. Although those speakers are obviously ill-informed, it points to the confusion over High (official) German and High (hill-country) German in the minds of English speakers.
With luck, this discussion will help to eliminate the confusing translation of Oberdeutsch as "High German."
-- posted by rkhen
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