Et tu, Faramir?
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- _jdr
- Michael_Martinez
- eonwe
- _jdr
- Eldanuumea
- Michael_Martinez
- Eldanuumea
- Entspinster
- desertblue
- Michael_Martinez
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» _jdr - The Post-modern Middle Earth
In response to message posted by Eldanuumea:Well, I think anything with "lore" floating around in the title ought to count as an "intentional history". There are plenty of references of this type, although most of them are to things written after the Third Age.
In reference to Bilbo's book, remember that however humble may be its beginnings, it eventually comes to take on a life of its own and embodies a collection of work much larger than just the recounting of his adventures.
Also, Merry is named as having authored several distinctly academic sounding works such as Herblore of the Shire, Reckoning of Years, and Old Words and Names in the Shire. How much do you care to judge from a title?
-- posted by _jdr
» Michael_Martinez - Re: The Post-modern Middle Earth
In response to message posted by _jdr:Hobbit scholarship was nonetheless rather sparse and it came very late in the chronology.
-- posted by Michael_Martinez
» eonwe - Re: A Literary History of Middle Earth
In response to message posted by _jdr:There's no reason to believe hobbits have a proclivity towards writing. Quite the opposite seems to have been the case, in fact. The story-teller mentions on at least one occasion that very few hobbits even manage to get as far as learning their letters. Low literacy rates don't do much for the demand for books. Besides, the tendency of the Bagginses (not to mention the odd Took, Brandybuck, and wonder of wonders, a Gamgee!) to write things down in books sets them apart from other hobbits. It's one in a long list of peculiarities the boys from Bag End exhibit vis a vis their fellow Harfoots - or is it Harfeet?
-- posted by eonwe
» _jdr - Re: Re: A Literary History of Middle Earth
In response to message posted by eonwe:The point I was trying to make was that among the groups in Middle Earth hobbits were probably less likely to read and write and yet we have specific references to a number of works authored by hobbits. Whether or not larger conclusions can drawn from that or from the fact that Bilbo, Frodo, Sam, Pippin, and Merry all become authors is of course pure speculation.
-- posted by _jdr
» Eldanuumea - Re: Re: Re: A Literary History of Middle Earth
In response to message posted by _jdr:I have the impression that Bilbo and Frodo are unusually well-versed, and it seems natural that their quest experiences would have matured the others so that they would become interested in preserving the War of the Ring legacy.
-- posted by Eldanuumea
» Michael_Martinez - Re: A Literary History of Middle Earth
In response to message posted by _jdr:Imagine the view of history we might have if we were to discover the records of only one out of ten groups of people who had interacted with each other for a thousand years, and that our discovery had unveiled only a fraction of the records of that one people.
Tolkien presents a very full picture of life in Middle-earth, but nonetheless much of the information he shares is provided from the point of view of the Hobbits. The picture is incomplete and he really never fully intended to create a complete picture. It would have been impossible. I believe the reader is expected to understand that we are being shown a certain point of view, and that the story could have been told from other points of view, but was not.
-- posted by Michael_Martinez
» Eldanuumea - Re: Re: A Literary History of Middle Earth
In response to message posted by Michael_Martinez:history is always written by the winners....they often destroy everyone else's records!
-- posted by Eldanuumea
» Entspinster - Re: Re: A Literary History of Middle Earth
In response to message posted by Michael_Martinez:Most of the Lord of the Rings is "Hobbitcentric" and largely restricted to what the Hobbits would have witnessed. However the narrative surrounding and including the Paths of the Dead is different, no Hobbits were present, and the narrative of Legolas and Gimli to the Hobbits leaves a lot out. Several times it is said that only those who were close to Aragorn and knew him well realized how difficult it was for him. I think those people actually = Legolas (and Gimli, but Gimli is far less articulate about emotions, and would probably follow the Dwarf custom of not discussing womenfolk).
I can imagine Legolas confiding in Faramir or his son or grandson. We know that Legolas spent much time in Ithilien, and designed the gardens around Faramir's castle. Perhaps the most likely time for passing on this information would be after the deaths of Aragorn and Arwen, while Legolas was building his ship to sail West. It would no longer be a betrayal of confidence, and while Faramir himself had passed on, his son was steward in Gondor, and his grandson seems to have done some historical transcribing.
This, if true, and it is at least plausible, gives another dimension to Legolas's role-- to observe, sympathize with, and remember things about Aragorn of which most others could have no clue.
-- posted by Entspinster
» desertblue - Re: Re: Re: A Literary History of Middle Earth
In response to message posted by _jdr:I can't recall if Pippin did any writing.
-- posted by desertblue
» Michael_Martinez - Re: A Literary History of Middle Earth
In response to message posted by desertblue:I suspect Elladan and Elrohir may have been the assumed sources for some of what happened in the Paths of the Dead. They would have known Aragorn better than Legolas and Gimli.
Frodo would have had plenty of opportunity to hear about the Paths of the Dead from Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli, Elladan, Elrohir, and any of the Rangers in the weeks after the Downfall of Sauron. I think the fiction that Frodo wrote most of the source material for The Lord of the Rings holds up well because he had access to nearly every character. Some things are clearly beyond his ken (such as Gollum's curious behavior while both Frodo and Sam are sleeping).
But just because a Hobbit is not in one of the scenes doesn't mean the details of the scene would not have been related in "off stage" discussions.
-- posted by Michael_Martinez
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