It's all in the family: The Elweans and Ingweans

Top 2. Jan 4, 2002 8:16 AM

» rteed - Re: Elweans & Finweans

I'd also be interested in hearing Michael's explanation of why Celeborn and Galadriel split up at the end of the Third Age, but until he recovers from his holidays, let me propose one of my own:

It wasn't just love for Middle Earth that made Celeborn stay, it was love of his family. He and Galadriel had a daughter: Celebrian, a son-in-law: Elrond, and three grandchildren: Arwen, Elladan, and Elrohir. Arwen was not only their granddaughter, but they'd also done much of the work of raising her (she spent a lot of her time in Lothlorien with them).
At the end of the Third Age, Arwen made the difficult decision to marry Aragorn and give up her immortality. Just as she went to Gondor to take up her new life and make this sacrifice, her father and grandmother announced their decision to leave Middle Earth forever within a year. Arwen was going to have to face her new life and eventual sacrifice without the support of the family that she had been part of for about 3000 years. Her brothers chose to stay (although not in Gondor full-time).
This created another problem: back when Elrond chose to be one of the Elves, he was told that his children would become mortal if they didn't cross the sea with him. Hopefully, Celeborn was able to substitute for Elrond in this case, because Tolkein didn't state that the Elladan and Elrohir had become mortal, only that Arwen had. So Celeborn had all three of them to look after.
Arwen did end up dying alone, whether through her own choice or because her kin couldn't wait that long to leave, I'm not sure. Celeborn did go back over the sea, but we never find out if his grandsons went too, or if they eventually became mortal as well.

-- posted by rteed

Top 3. Jan 5, 2002 8:29 AM

» Michael_Martinez - Re: Elweans & Finweans

In response to message posted by celebrian:

I apologize for not responding sooner. I could have sworn I was checking these discussions through the holidays, but maybe I've gotten so much email over the controversial comments in the movie review I just haven't had a chance to review the discussions. smile

There are two reasons I can think of for why I suggest Celebrian had silver hair. It may be that, when I wrote that, I had actually found a passage saying so (but I can't be sure without doing a lot of research).

Celebrian was the daughter of Celeborn, and Celeborn had silver hair. Other members of their family who had silver hair included Thingol, Earwen (the daughter of Thingol's brother), and Cirdan. Her name means "silver queen" (according to Tolkien in Letter 345), and that implies strongly to me that she would have had silver hair like her father.

Celeborn's decision to remain in Middle-earth is not really explained, but in "Laws and Customs among the Eldar" (published in Morgoth's Ring), Tolkien explained that Eldarin couples sometimes spent long periods apart. So it was not unusual for Celeborn to stay in Middle-earth.

Also, the trip over Sea was an irrevocable choice for both of them. Celeborn would never be able to return to Middle-earth, where he was born. The departure would be especially difficult for him, and I believe he must have delayed it for as long as he could bear to be away from Galadriel.

-- posted by Michael_Martinez

Top 4. Jan 7, 2002 7:02 PM

» celebrian - Re: Re: Elweans & Finweans

Happy New Year!

Thank you for the reply. I am getting back to Middle Earth after a lengthy absence and it is obvious there is a lot more material out there to dig around in. I will check out your guide to the books.

Silver queen is a beautiful name, and does lead one to speculate a family trait such as silver hair would have prompted it. She would have been very tall as well, with those parents...

Poor Celeborn, he would have Galadriel forever, but middle earth only a bit longer...how bittersweet both the staying and the going might have been.

-- posted by celebrian

Top 5. Jan 7, 2002 7:12 PM

» celebrian - Re: Re: Elweans & Finweans

Hi,

You both gave wonderful replies to my post. I admit, I have had similar thoughts to yours. Of course Michael's reply is based on Tolkien's work, but my sentimental heart feels this elf couldn't ignore his grandchildren, and I presume, great grandchildren. It has been a while since I dug around in the literature on Middle Earth, but memory is he lived with Elrohir and Elladan at Rivendell for a time, after he left Lothlorien for good???

Thanks again, it was fun to see someone who thinks he could have stayed for family as well as place.

-- posted by celebrian

Top 6. Jan 7, 2002 8:26 PM

» rteed - Re: Re: Re: Elweans & Finweans

The information on Celeborn and Elrond's sons during the 4th age is at the end of the Prologue in "The Fellowship of the Ring". Arwen's story and more about her relationship with Aragon can be found in Appendix A of "The Return of the King".

The one I really feel sorry for is Elrond. He was separated from his wife for about 500 years, then from his kids, at a time when he probably wanted to be there (at least for Arwen). On the bright side, elves (at least the older ones) had the capability to "look mind to mind", so Celeborn could at least give Elrond and Celebrian his memories of Arwen's children, even though Elrond and Celebrian would never meet them.

-- posted by rteed

Top 7. Jan 10, 2002 10:47 AM

» celebrian - Re: Re: Re: Re: Elweans & Finweans

Hmmm, rteed, yes one feels for Elrond, but if we go down that path, what about poor Celebrian? First captured and tortured by orcs and is so traumatized by the events she insists on leaving Middle Earth and her husband and children. There is the poor dear (presumably feeling better, but without her immediate family) expecting Elrond to show up one day with the kids, only to have him arrive alone. She then learns she'll never see Arwen and maybe not "the boys".

I have really enjoyed these exchanges-thanks for corresponding with me.

-- posted by celebrian

Top 8. Nov 13, 2002 11:51 PM

» Armenelos - Re: Re: Elweans & Finweans

this is a most excellent article. i've read two of yours so far (the other i posted on Tolkien Online without asking, even though I gave you credit, and for which I am very sorry), and I have fully agreed with both of them. i hope to read more of them and feel the same way.

-- posted by Armenelos

Top 9. Nov 14, 2002 11:49 AM

» Michael_Martinez - Re: Elweans & Finweans

In response to message posted by Armenelos:

Thanks for the apology. It's okay to quote the first few paragraphs of an article and then link to it.

-- posted by Michael_Martinez

Top 10. Nov 14, 2002 12:45 PM

» rishade - Re: Re: Elweans & Finweans

In response to message posted by Michael_Martinez:
Maybe Celeborn stayed in Middle -earth not only to look after his grandchildren. He might have been the person to "close the door" of the epoch of elves. Aragorn and Arwen were a kind of a link between Elven time and human time. So not only Celeborn leaves around the end of their reign - Legolas, and perhaps Elladan and Elrohir also. Celeborn surely left before Aragorn's death, so Arwen comes to die in empty Lorien
By the way, there is a very good Russian fanfic called "Excursion". It is about Celeborn, who did not leave Middle-Earth, stayed there till the coming of "post-undustrial" century. Once he decided to go on excursion to former Mordor, which is now a rich and comfortable resting area, with a hobbit named Earendil Gamgee...

-- posted by rishade