The Sauron Strategies: One war to win them all, except...
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- proudfoot
- Michael_Martinez
- desertblue
- proudfoot
- proudfoot
- desertblue
- desertblue
- proudfoot
- desertblue
- proudfoot
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» proudfoot - Re: Re: Re: Re: sauron
In response to message posted by Dominator:The Mordor Uruks in Moria were sent from Dol Goldur by order of Sauron. They were the the force of Orcs that came up the Silverlode to kill Balin and pin his fellow Dwarves inside Moria. Then the Balrog and its Orc-force combined with them to exterminate the Dwarves. After the destruction of Balin's colony, the Uruks stayed in Moria to help guard it from further intrusion. Sauron didn't care if "his" Orcs were under the rule of the Balrog or not, since the demon was satisfied with its chosen domain, and did not rival his plans for domination elsewhere.(This is inferred from info in Fellowship and The Hunt for the Ring segment of Unfinished Tales.)
Saruman's Uruk-hai identified themselves as such as a mark of distinction. Their discipline, battle prowess and fierce pride in their capabilities were the proof of their identity. However, it is likely that Saruman's number of actual uruks was low. Most of his "uruk-hai" were in fact half-orcs whose orcish characteristics were predominant.
How as this so? The uruk-hai first appeared in large numbers in TA 2475, when they stormed out of Mordor to spread wrack and ruin across Ithilien. (Certain "prototype" units may have existed before then.) After proving their worth, the uruks were allowed to multiply, forming their own units or serving as the leaders of the lesser breeds of Orc. In due time the Misty Mountain tribes would have received uruks from Mordor through Dol Goldur. (They may have been part of the increased number of Orcs that closed the passes after TA 2480.) After Saruman turned to evil and began recruiting his own horde, he discovered the merits of the uruk-hai who enlisted along with the common Orcs.
Saruman realized the advantages of the uruk-hai, and he wanted more. In order to increase the amount of his uruk-hai without asking favors from Mordor or falling behind in his plans to conquer Rohan, he instituted the creation of half-orcs. Tolkien mentioned that most half-orcs tended to be more like orcs than not, so the mostly orcish half-orcs were used to augment his uruk-hai units. (He probably used uruk-hai for the orcish strain anyway.) So by the start of the War of the Ring, Saruman had a large force of uruk-hai under his command, eager for his service due to the favor he bestowed on them.
-- posted by proudfoot
» Michael_Martinez - Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: sauron
In response to message posted by proudfoot:I'm afraid you've confused the history a little. The Orcs which first appeared in the late 25th century were simply called Uruks. Sauron sent them to inhabit Minas Morgul, Ithilien, and the Misty Mountains. They probably also settled in Dol Guldur.
No distinction or comparison is made between the Orcs whom Balin's colony drove out and the Orcs who returned almost five years later to destroy the Dwarves. We can conclude from a few descriptions that there probably were Uruks in Moria at the time the Company of the Ring passed through, but most of the Orcs there were not Uruks.
Saruman's Uruk-hai were a tribe of Uruks who enlisted in Saruman's army. We don't know where they came from or when he recruited them or if he engaged in any breeding program to improve them.
Uruk-hai were not half-Orcs.
-- posted by Michael_Martinez
» desertblue - Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: sauron
In response to message posted by Michael_Martinez:Okay, then, what ARE the half-orcs? (I hated the Pod People Orcs in the movie, BTW)...
jill
-- posted by desertblue
» proudfoot - Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: sauron
In response to message posted by Michael_Martinez:I may not have been clear about my thesis on Saruman's uruk-hai. Uruk-hai were not half-orcs, but Saruman's half-orcs considered themselves uruk-hai, alongside the true uruks who were the core of Saruman's army. As portrayed in The Two Towers, Saruman's uruk-hai were distinct enough from orcs in general that even Aragorn was struck by the difference. (As A Ranger, we could accept his expertise on the description and nature of Orcs.) The half-orcs described by Merry & Pippin in the army of Isengard had orcish features that distinguished them from the Dunlendings. The Rohirrim could not distinguish between uruks and half-orcs, and thought they were both the creations of Saruman. (See Gamling's complaint about the endurance of "half-orcs and goblin-men" at Helm's Deep.) The main body of half-orcs resembled Uruks more than Men, and would have been treated the same, and would have accepted the self-image. They represented the best physical features of Orcs and Men (barring appearance), and they combined the ferocity of Orcs with the discipline of Men.
So where does this place the half-orc Uruk-hai in reference to the half-orcs of Return Of The King and Ugluk's troop? The half-orc spies and brigands that served as Saruman's agents were not typical of the half-orcs, but specially chosen ones who could "pass" as Men, albeit ugly, bad-mannered ones. The rest were organized as foot soldiers for the Army of the White Hand. They might have been less orc-like than true uruks, but at a glance they would have looked the same, and acted the same in a given situation. Ugluk's troop of uruk-hai could be written off as true uruks, and never mind the distinctions, but the differences between his White Hand troops and the "spear fodder" Northeners, plus the Orcs of the Eye, were distinctly made in the text. Ugluk himself was probably an uruk, but how many of his band could be the same? And Ugluk himself was unswervingly devoted to Saruman, without the petty grumbling about the big bosses heard in the conversations of the Mordor Orcs elsewhere in the story. All his nastiness was reserved for the lesser Orcs who couldn't equal his "fighting uruk-hai" for results. Why should he be so devoted to "Sharkey", except as the loyal servant-offspring of his master-creator?
As regards to the Dol Guldur issue, if I gave the impression that uruks were the predominant type of Orc in Moria, then I was mistaken. Uruks would still have been outnumbered by the common kinds, although they would have still assumed the usual elite/leadership roles. (The chieftan who nearly skewers Frodo may have been an uruk; he was "almost man-high", which in Middle-Earth terms meant a hight of "almost" 6'4"!) My basis for presuming the "up from Silverlode" Orcs as being from Dol Guldur were geography and motivation. Geography, because a force from Dol Guldur would have crossed Anduin above Lothlorien, and used the river as their guide-point to the East-Gate of Moria. Motivation, because Sauron had no desire or advantage to see Balin's colony prospering. He could have easily spared a battalion of Orcs to crush Balin's colony before it got the Dwarves' hopes up or started fostering Dwarf & Elf amity again. The Balrog waited 5 years to crush Balin's 200 with outside help, but maybe that was to its benefit as well. It certainly was not so shy about warning Dain Ironfoot off at the end of the Dwarf & Orc War. I suppose that the Balrog itself could have sent messengers to gather survivors and recruit more from the Misty Mountain tribes, which would have justified a five-year wait, but Tolkien didn't give the sort of details that would've confirmed this.
-- posted by proudfoot
» proudfoot - Half-orc identity
In response to message posted by desertblue:Half-orcs were the creation of Saruman, to bulk out his army with fighters that could mix the best features of Orcs and Men. These best features being: Men's strength + height combination plus need for discipline & order, and Orcs' endurance, ferocity & obedience to superior force. He needed half-orcs because his Orcs were mostly the lesser breeds of the Misty Mountains who were not up to facing the Rohirrim's cavalry charges in daylight, and his Dunlending hill-men lacked the equipment and tenacity to face the armored Rohirrim one-on-one long enough to secure a victory.
Half-orcs were certainly not created in the way Saruman's uruk-hai are depicted in the FOTR movie. Peter Jackson was pressed to show the extent of Saruman's treachery, as was discovered and described after the fact in TTT. From a cinematic point of view it made more sense to show some mad science type of sorcery than take up time & cinematic pacing with a discourse on half-orc breeding.
Breeding was what happened. According to Tolkien, Orcs increased "after the manner of the Children of Iluvatar", which meant in reproduction they were compatible with Men and Elves, after a fashion. Saruman bred Dunlendings and Orcs together, using basic heredity to create his half-orc fighters and spies. This was done in imitation of Sauron's creation of the uruks, and a sign of his moral corruption. (See some of Michael's earlier articles on the possible connection between altered humans and uruks.) If you thought that hatching uruks from pods was bad, would you have liked to seen them being made the "old-fashioned way"? Goodbye to the PG-13 rating!
For the record, I thought the film's depiction of uruk-hai/uruks was pretty good. They were bigger, straighter, and tougher than the regular Orcs, just as fierce & ugly, and they were not put off by heroes wielding weapons of quality. Their seeming poor performance at Amon Hen had to be balanced against the overall quality of Aragorn, Boromir, Gimli, and Legolas as warriors. (Not to mention the absence, for cinematic plot purposes, of Northern Orcs and Mordor Orcs as sword fodder for the Fellowship.) I would not want to be part of a low-level D&D or MERP party and see Lurtz & company charging out of the trees! Right now we can only anticipate the further treatment of Saruman's uruk-hai in the TTT movie, especially since actors for Ugluk and Grishnakh were originally cast for the film, and Helm's Deep is a showpiece of the film. (Ugluk is a definite, portrayed by Nathaniel Lees, who has appeared on the Hercules/Xena shows before.)
-- posted by proudfoot
» desertblue - Re: Half-orc identity
In response to message posted by proudfoot:Thanks for the response Proudfoot. I think Orcs are highly interesting and I loved the way Jackson portrayed them. Even the small details like the multiple piercings was a touch I hadn't thought of, but fits perfectly with the image. The "basic orc stock" comes off as highly distinctive from the Uruks, which I'd hoped we'd see.
My beef is with spawning the Uruk-Hai from a cocoon. Now I don't know if htese are intended to be half-orcs or not, but the pods seemed to reek of 'sorcery' and not an unholy breeding program. Which would be more distasteful, and have greater impact. We didn't have to SEE the sex. Just the implied act.
These are just my thoughts, and it's not a big deal. I really appreciate your in-depth comments.
Jill
-- posted by desertblue
» desertblue - Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: sauron
In response to message posted by Michael_Martinez:In response to the comment from Gandalf about there being other evil things in the world besides Sauron's servants, I wonder what perhaps was the Watcher in the Water. And did it go directly for Frodo as coincidence?
Jill
-- posted by desertblue
» proudfoot - Older and Fouler Things
In response to message posted by desertblue:The exact quote is, "There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the Earth." There's a line with resonance, right? Gandalf referred to the Underdeeps, a system of caverns that extended for an unknown distance and depth below the Misty Mountains. The Underdeeps were a remnant of Morgoth's time on Arda, and inhabited by his twisted creations. The Dwarves of Moria broke into the Underdeeps while they were following a rich vein of mithril. That is where they found the refuge of the Balrog. Or maybe it found them first... The Watcher in the Water was another creature from the Undeeps. Somehow it found its way out of the depths and into the pool by the West-Gate. It dammed the stream and created a large pool that blocked access into and out of the gate. When the Dwarves of Balin's colony tried to escape from the Orcs, they fled to the West Gate, and found the Watcher lurking there. They could not get out... What manner of creature the Watcher was is not told, but Tolkien meant it to be a periphery menace and a warning, like the sea-monsters in Beowulf. "Here be monsters..." The Watcher grabbed Frodo first, and it was not an accident. The Ring had a nasty habit of drawing unwanted attention. The Watcher didn't have to be intelligent, just feel an impulse to grab a particular person. The movie showed more of the creature than the text, but that was just WETA showing off.
-- posted by proudfoot
» desertblue - Re: Older and Fouler Things
In response to message posted by proudfoot:Thanks. Watching the movie it seemed the creature was an aquatic spider (with a mouth straight from Dune)but upon reflection maybe Jackson intended to recall some kind of giant cephalopod. But of course I would think SPIDER when I think of Tolkien monsters.
Nice thought on the Ring drawing attention in insidious ways. Could explain what happened when Frodo got pinned in Balin's Tomb. Obviously no one there knew what he bore...
Jill
-- posted by desertblue
» proudfoot - Re: Re: Older and Fouler Things
In response to message posted by desertblue:The Middle Earth Role-Playing Game (MERP) defined the Watcher as a Kraken, the legendary multi-armed sea monster. It was similarly to a semi-intelligent octopus or squid, according to descriptions. The Watcher was a "small" one that had emerged from the Underdeeps. (It had probably grown after taking up residence in the pool.) Before Tolkien, Victor Hugo, Jules Verne, H.G. Wells, and William Hope Hodgson had written terrifying and gripping (literally, sometimes) stories about men struggling with monstrous creatures of the deep ocean. I don't know why Tolkien chose a kraken-like monster to be the Watcher, but the creepiness factor seemed to work. ^_^
The big question about the Moria segment of FOTR is how the Balrog and its minions came to know about the presence of the Fellowship. Pippin did not help with his careless stone down the old well, but Gandalf had made the trip as a calculated risk that seemed to have lesser dangers than taking the Ring close to Isengard and the army & spies of Saruman. The Balrog may have become aware of the Ring, and set out with some of its minions to seek and take the thing of power. A mere intrusion by 9 outsiders could have been ordinarily left to the Orcs and Trolls, or they could have passed unchallenged. (Moria was a big city...) The movie seems to indicate that Gandalf knew the Balrog was in Moria. This is uncertain at best, but the inchoate fear of the Dwarves was a matter of record, and Gandalf might have sensed danger in the deeps of Moria in his previous journey.
-- posted by proudfoot
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