It's all in the family: The Finweans

Top 6. Jan 5, 2002 1:35 PM

» Tar_Elenion - Re: Re: Elven Geneology

In response to message posted by Michael_Martinez:

Any thoughts yet on my commentary?

Tar-Elenion

-- posted by Tar_Elenion

Top 7. Jan 7, 2002 11:00 PM

» Michael_Martinez - Re: Re: Re: Elven Geneology

In response to message posted by Tar_Elenion:

A week doesn't go by where I don't think about getting back to this. But even when I disagree with you, your arguments are thoughtful and challenging, and I have been so busy these past few months that I just have had to let a lot of things slip, including many discussions such as this one. You deserve a better reply than I have been able to give you. But for now, I cannot work on the research.

On the other hand, my current book project requires that I eventually get back into this material. I'm just not that far along yet.

-- posted by Michael_Martinez

Top 8. Jan 8, 2002 9:25 PM

» Tar_Elenion - Re: Re: Re: Re: Elven Geneology

In response to message posted by Michael_Martinez:

I look forward to it. I understand about being busy, its been that way for me to.

-- posted by Tar_Elenion

Top 9. Oct 2, 2002 12:41 PM

» LeftyScaevola - Gildor

A hypothesis for Gildor, consistent with him being a High Elf, an Exile (captitalized) and "...Inglorion of the house of Finarfin" is that his family connection was that of adoption or fosterling, rather than of blood descent. There were certainly enough casualties and orphans made during the grinding ice and early battles, and an immature Noldo or perhaps even a mature Noldo at a later date, or several, may well have been fostered by Finrod, as well as other princes. With what little detail we have about family and royal protocol among the Noldor, this may well have given him the family status of being of the house of Finarfin, while almost certainly not making him a royal heir of Finwe.

-- posted by LeftyScaevola

Top 10. Oct 6, 2002 10:22 PM

» Michael_Martinez - Re: Gildor

In response to message posted by LeftyScaevola:

I don't think a fosterling could or would take the name of an Elven king. Gildor's story seems to have been forgotten or overlooked by Tolkien, and the consequence of that has been much puzzlemen and discussion among the readership.

An adoption is, however, something I have never considered before. But I'm not aware of any explicit adoptions among the Eldar. Their laws and views of kinship seem to have been rather extended.

-- posted by Michael_Martinez

Top 11. Oct 7, 2002 6:23 AM

» LeftyScaevola - Re: Re: Gildor

In response to message posted by Michael_Martinez:

Family relations, adoptions, etc, must necessarily be very different among biological immortals than among mortals. When you have thousands of years to establish who you are, it is less important who your ancestors were. I would suspect that most of the rules for heirship and ancesteral relations were developed in the royal and princely families, to account for passing of leadership.
Another hypothesis I had for Gildor consistent with the text, EXCEPT for him being an Exile, is that he is a grandson or later descendant of Finrod through female descent making him one of the family, but not a royal heir.

-- posted by LeftyScaevola

Top 12. Oct 7, 2002 9:25 AM

» Michael_Martinez - Re: Re: Re: Gildor

In response to message posted by LeftyScaevola:

Any child of an Exile, born in Middle-earth, would still be considered an Exile.

-- posted by Michael_Martinez

Top 13. Oct 8, 2002 6:59 AM

» LeftyScaevola - more beating on Gildor's dead horse.

Gildor is not only an "Exile" but is also called a "High" elf, meaning one who had dwelt in Aman. It is possible that such title was also given by curtesy to the children of actual "High" Elves.

-- posted by LeftyScaevola

Top 14. Jul 14, 2004 11:57 PM

» undercat - Alternate View on Finwions and their Politics

Quite an interesting and comprehensive article, as are all of yours that I've read. A bit late to be posting, I suppose, but eh. 3 in the morning, and I'm both drunk and bored.

I'd like to bring up one other argument in favor of the embarrassingly named Ereinion being Orodreth the pansy's son: upon Fingon's death, the High Kingship passed to Turgon. Surely had Gil-Galad been Fingon's son, he would have immediately inherited the crown. The Noldor might ignore the King (eg, the Feanarions, who more or less did what they pleased. You could draw an allusion to the division of the Roman Empire into two nations, with Fingolfin ruling the West and Maedhros the East. Of course, everyone acknowledged Golfin as High King, if a bit grudgingly, but Maedhros was probably his equal in power, which does make sense from both a political and a military point of view), or they might outright disobey him, a la Orodreth, but leaving aside the whole Feanor/Fingolfin thing, there were no rival claims to the Kingship. (Plus Mae/Fin is practically canon, and mpreg's just _icky_).

(By Orodreth disobeying, I refer to him refusing to join in the Union of Maedhros because Curufin and Celegorm were included. Though Mae's idea, Fingon was an active participant, and as High King, I assume he ordered all Noldorin realms to send troops. Even Turgon came, and Fingon had no means of sending a message to him. Orodreth's reasoning's more than a bit childish: Morgoth's the ULTIMATE EVIL, after all. When C&C orchestrate the rebellion against Finrod, Orodreth does absolutely nothing, but when they try to take power away from him, oh no, not only did he kick them out, but he also refused his King's call to war.

Also, though the two Feanarions are always portrayed as evil, their actions in Nargothrond do make sense. IMO, the Oath is the chief reason the Feanarions forfitted the right to the Kingship, because their chief duty wasn't to their people, but to the Silmarills (Thilmarilli). Likewise, Finrod puts his oath to Beren above his obligation to the people of Nargothrond, and thus is no longer a fit leader. And had C&C succeeded in wresting power from Orodreth, I daresay they'd have do a far better job of defending Nargothrond. Whatever else one can say about them, they're not cowards, nor would they have listened to Turin and his silly plan to build a bridge).

Now, on succession after Finwe. Despite Fingolfin's ambitions, Feanor was the rightful heir to Finwe, being the eldest child. I'd personally say there were six kings after Finwe: Feanor (died), Maedhros (abdicated and later died), Fingolfin (died), Fingon (died), Turgon (died) and Gil-Galad (also died). By claiming the throne after Finwe's death, Fingolfin was in effect usurping the throne, especially given his vow to follow Feanor. Previous events (and Feanor's insanity), however, make this very understandable.

First, the relationship between Feanor and Fingolfin. Feanor had a rather traumatic childhood. Not only was his mother dead (unheard of in Aman), but his father was King, and thus had many responsibilities, and Feanor quite possibly didn't spend that much time with him. That's debatable, as Finwe and Feanor had a very close relationship (can't remember exact quote, but somewhere in the Silm. it says that no son loved his father more than Feanor Finwe). But I can certainly image Feanor being very spoiled, due to his precociousness and Finwe's love and guilt. Feanor would have been just a baby when Miriel died, and thus unable to understand why she left him. Because he didn't attend the debate about Finwe marrying Indis, I also assume he was very young when that happened. I can't imagine him not not going if old enough; to plead for Miriel's release from Mandos, and argue against Indis becoming his father's second wife. Now, this is quite possibly not true, but I've always imagined Feanor and Fingolfin growing up together. They seem to define their political stance by opposition to the other, and their sibling rivalry seems to go beyond mere power struggles. For what it's worth, both seem to ignore Finarfin, too, presumedly because Finwe's two eldest sons were out of his house when Narf was born.

So, we have an intense case of sibling rivalry, compounded by Morgoth's manipulations, and then Feanor goes ahead and draws his sword on Golfin (who's certainly not innocent either, he did provoke Feanor). What happens after this? The Valar intercede and undermine Finwe's authority. Consider. Why do the Valar have the right to judge Feanor? It's a strictly internal manner, both parties being Noldor and thus under the rule of Finwe. By exiling Feanor, they are sending the message that they don't trust Finwe to make decisions, even when it involves his own family. Now, the Valar's intentions are good, but what happens when Finwe makes an unpopular decree? People mutter that the Valar don't trust Finwe, why should they obey him. Hell, the Valar gave the rule of Tirion to Fingolfin, which they most certainly shouldn't have done. (Now, had the Valar known about Morgoth's involvement, then the matter would have been under their jurisdiction, but they didn't find out about him until after they questioned Feanor).

So Finwe leaves for Formenos with Feanor et al. Feanor's now quite enraged. The Valar have not only denied him his mother (in his mind), but they've in effect stripped his beloved father of his crown and given it to his hated half-brother. Fingolfin, meanwhile, thinks the kingship of Noldor's (Finwe basically abdicated, in practice if not in fact) been passed to him, with the Valar's approval.

Yadda yadda yadda ten years pass and Feanor's summoned to Taniquentil. (Which irks him, his King's Finwe, not the Valar, and thus had they been a bit wiser, they would have "requested Feanor's presence"). And then Morgoth and Ungoliant kill the trees, Finwe, abscond with the Silmarills, and Feanor goes insane. (He'd always had a tenuous grasp on reality, but his father's death and the theft of the Silmarills pushes him over the edge. For what it's worth, three hundred odd years later, Fingolfin too goes crazy. Challenging Morgoth may be very brave, but it's suicidal, has no chance of success, and if anything hurt the war effort). The Noldor, naturally, are pissed, and IMO, rightly decide to fight Morgoth. (I am most certainly not condoning the Kinslaying, but I do think they were right to 'rebel' and pursue Morgoth. You can sit and mourn the Trees all you like, but hell, Morgoth's now a threat to all the Elves in Middle-Earth, and he's had a history of enslaving elves, and perverting them into orcs, which I consider by far his worst crime. Not to mention, Men are soon going to awake, and Morgoth thus engineers the Fall. Rather than fight him, bring him to justice, and prevent him corrupting the Children of Eru, the Valar sit and cry over a couple trees, when the Noldor are fighting bravely, and dying, and Morgoth's corrupting and enslaving everyone in Beleriand. The Valar know what's going on, even had they not been paying attention to Beleriand (which we know they were; witness Manwe sending Thorondor to help Fingon, and Elwing turning into a bird), Idril and Tuor showed up in Valinor and told them. But no, they don't do their duty until Earendil brings them one of Feanor's shinies).

Now, the orthodox view (Tolkien's, and yours also) is that Feanor had no right to return to Tirion and no right to command the Noldor. I don't buy that. The Noldor (and the Teleri) might be living in Valinor, but they are autonomous nations, and thus their leaders have the right to rule as they wish. In theory, at least. Finwe was the King of the Noldor, not Manwe and ilk, and thus the only one who had the authority to banish someone from Tirion. It's interesting to note that Finwe had no say in deciding whether or not Feanor should be banished, and though he didn't have the power to disobey the Valar (being supernatural, powerful beings), by considering himself exiled as well, he clearly showed his disagreement. (I'm using 'power' and 'authority' with political science definitions).

By the way, the Valar can't have it two ways. If they have the right to rule the Elves, then they have the obligation to protect them (ie, against Morgoth). If however, they don't have the right, then the Noldor are not rebelling against them. (Even if they are the elves' rightful rulers, by not living up to their end of the social contract, they forfit their authority to rule).

But anyways, the most of the Noldor leave Valinor, the majority following Fingolfin. Being that most elves wanted to go to Middle-Earth, and Fingolfin was opposed to it, I'd surmise it was the Oath that turned many against Feanor. But they left anyways, killed a bunch of Teleri, the Feanarions abandoned everyone else, who then cross the Ice and end up in Beleriand.

I'd like to point out here that Finarfin doesn't repent after Alqualonde, but only after hearing the Doom of the Noldor. I've no doubt that he felt horrible, as did everybody else, but it was the punishment, not the sin, that made him turn back.

Any dispute over the High Kingship is settled when Maedhros abdicates, making the House of Fingolfin, in effect, the eldest line of Finwe. A wise decision on his part; Maedhros was suprisingly diplomatic, considering he's a Noldo, and a Feanarion at that. Whatever else one can say about the Noldor, they most certainly aren't humble.

Finally the Kingship passes to Gil-Galad, interestingly not to Idril. The Eldar weren't a sexist society, yet all the High Kings were male. The only females ruling Elvish Kingdoms I can think of are Galadriel and Melian, and both of them share power with their husbands. Perhaps Idril marrying a human disqualifies her. That would also account for Elrond not claiming the Noldorin Crown.

Now, Galadriel too has a claim to it, and moreover, once had the ambition to rule kingdoms. Gil-Galad does come before her in the line of succession, which passes from father to eldest son, and if that line dies, to the next eldest (Galadriel being the youngest child of Finarfin). However, at this point, there is no Noldorin Kingdom, and moreover, Galadriel's happy in Lorien. I do wonder, though, if the Noldor would have accepted her as Queen. The only noldorin realm she lives in while in Middle Earth is Eregion, and they kick her out. She seems to identify primarily with the Teleri and Sindar. She fought in Alqualonde on the side of her mother's people, and to our knowledge, that's the only time she engaged in battle.

Wow. I can't believe I wrote so much. It's probably not that well-written, but I would be interested in hearing your opinion on the points I raise.

-- posted by undercat