A History of the Last Alliance of Elves and Men, Part 2

Top 14. Oct 30, 2001 9:58 PM

» Michael_Martinez - Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The Last Battle

In response to message posted by Kharan:

Sorry. If it's any consolation, yours wasn't the only request which went unfulfilled while I was ill and immediately after I recovered.

I don't know of any signfiicance for the axes off the top of my head, although it may have something to do with Egyptian culture. Will be RIGHT BACK with the info you requested.

Promise. smile

-- posted by Michael_Martinez

Top 15. Oct 30, 2001 10:27 PM

» Michael_Martinez - Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The Last Battle

In response to message posted by Kharan:

Okay, the description of the last combat may be found in The Return of the Shadow, pages 215-6 in the Houghton Mifflin hardback. Here it comes:

'You remember?' said Bingo, looking astonished at Elrond. 'But I thought this tale was of days long ago.'

'So it is,' said Elrond laughing. 'But my memory reaches back a long way [> to long ago]. My father was Eärendel who was born in Gondolin seven years before it fell, and my mother was Elwing daughter of Luthien daughter of King Thingol of Doriath, and I have seen many ages in the West of the world. I was at the council I speak of, for I was the minstrel and counsellor of Gilgalad. The armies of Elves and Men were joined once more, and we marched eastward, and crossed the Misty Mountains, and passed into the inner lands far from the memory of the Sea. And we became weary, and sickness was heavy upon us, made by the spells of Sauron -- for we had come at last to Mordor, the Black Country, where Sauron had rebuilt his fortress. It is on part of that dreary land that the Forest of Mirkwood now stands, and it derives its darkness and dread from the ancient evil [added: of the soil]. Sauron could not drive us away, for the power of the Elves was in those days still very great, though waning; and we besieged his stronghold for 7 [> 10] years. And at last Sauron came out in person, and wrestled with Gilgalad, and Elendil came to his rescue, and both were mortally wounded; but Sauron was thrown down, and his bodily shape was destroyed. His servants were dispelled and the host of Beleriand broke his stronghold and razed it to the ground. Gilgalad and Elendil died. But Sauron's evil spirit fled away and was hidden for a long while in waste places. Yet after an age he took shape again, and has long troubled the northern world [added: but his power is less than of old.]

Of course, this text is not wholly consistent with the published story. Mirkwood was eventually placed to the north of Mordor (or, rather, Mordor was placed to the south of Mirkwood).

This description actually was carried forward into "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age":

Then Gil-galad and Elendil passed into Mordor and encompassed the stronghold of Sauron; and they laid siege to it for seven years, and suffered grievous loss by fire and by the darts and bolts of the Enemy, and Sauron sent many sorties against them. There in the valley of Gorgoroth Anarion son of Elendil was slain, and many others. But at the last the siege was so strait that Sauron himself came forth; and he wrestled with Gil-galad and Elendil, and they both were slain, and the sword of Elendil broke udner him as he fell. But Sauron also was thrown down, and with the hilt-shard of Narsil Isildur cut the Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own. Then Sauron was for that time vanquished, and he forsook his body, and his spirit fled far away and hid in waste places; and he took no visible shape again for many long years.

The only other details on the struggle come from Isildur's scroll, which Gandalf recites to the Council:

...The Ring misseth, maybe, the heat of Sauron's hand, which was black and yet burned like fire, and so Gil-galad was destroyed;...

I can't think of any other passages which discuss the event. But from these clues I gather that Sauron attacked Gil-galad suddenly, without warnihng, and that Elendil rushed to his aid. Either Elendil or Isildur dealt Sauron the mortal stroke. I have for long believed it was Elendil who rendered Sauron incapable of defending himself, but some people have argued that Isildur's stroke was what actually slew Sauron. It may be that Sauron was wounded, perhaps even dazed, so that Isildur was able to take advantage of him. But what is clear is that Tolkien never fully described the battle in any writing which has been published to date.

-- posted by Michael_Martinez

Top 16. Nov 2, 2001 3:30 PM

» Kharan - Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The Last Battle

In response to message posted by Michael_Martinez:

So Tolkien left it ambiguous after all. I tend to agree with you that Elendil slayed Sauron (how would you cut off a finger from a living Dark Lord with a hilt shard?). Wonder why Isildur used the broken Narsil anyway? Was he unarmed at the time, or was it a symbolic gesture for his father?

Thanks for getting the quote.

-- posted by Kharan

Top 17. Nov 6, 2001 12:00 PM

» Michael_Martinez - Re: The Last Battle

In response to message posted by Kharan:

The business with Isildur is intriguing. Some people argue that Sauron was actually killed by Isildur's act. And yet, he still must have been very badly wounded in order for Isildur to be able to cut off his finger.

As to why Isildur would use his father's sword, I suspect it was supposed to be an emotional reaction.

-- posted by Michael_Martinez

Top 18. Dec 5, 2001 7:09 PM

» proudfoot - Response to discussion with Kharan

The account sounds a bit confusing & vague, because Tolkien, in his assumed role of translating or transcribing a pseudo-historical saga, is describing the "highlights" of a hand-to-hand combat. Hand-to-hand combat in the old days was very confusing and disorienting. The opposing lines inevitably became ragged as warriors fell on either side, and it was nearly all most could do to keep fighting their opposing opponents in the line. There was often little room or time for the fancy maneuvers so beloved of Hollywood films. Often, they just exchanged blows and counter-blows until someone got an attack past another's guard. Warriors often grappled with each other, trying to wrestle opponents into a vulnerable position for a thrust from a dagger or short sword. A champion with superior arms and some comrades to watch his back could fight with some confidence, but even he could be vulnerable to a sudden strike from beyond his perception. (How many quarterback sacks have you seen at football games where the QB gets slammed from his off-hand side despite his clear view of the struggle before and around him?)

Reading with this in mind, the final fight between Sauron, Gil-galad, and Elendil, plus Isildur's sudden coda, became clearer. Sauron didn't bother with any fancy moves which would get him highlight time in Peter Jackson's films. (Don't worry, they will probably give him a few moves for the sake of stage combat aficionados such as myself. ^_^) He quickly and mercilessly engaged Gil-galad and Elendil in close combat, overpowering them with the power channeled through the Ring (the "heat" that overcame the Elven king)and his own supernatural strength. The sword Narsil broke under Elendil when he fell, which was a realistic touch in itself. (Any sword, no matter the quality, will break if it suddenly bent the wrong way with great force.) Isildur, fighting close by Elendil, quickly struck at Sauron's right flank while the Dark Lord was focussed on achieving his victory, and stunned & knocked him down. Isildur knew about the One Ring (all the Last Alliance leaders would have), so he acted quickly to literally cut Sauron's chief source of power away from him. (Plus it made a great trophy! ^_^) He used the hilt-shard of Narsil, which was shorter than a normal sword. The shard was still sharp, so it made an excellent cleaver with which to amputate Sauron's finger and secure the Ring. (I have handled cruciform swords of varying sizes in stage combat class, and nearly all of them were too long for fine cutting work like that. If Isildur had swung at Sauron's hand with his own sword, he would likely have removed ALL the fingers!) Sauron, shocked by pain and sudden seperation from his Ring, literally gave up the ghost as his spirit de-materialized and left the battle. His followers fled, and the Dunedain and Elves were left with their dear-bought victory.

-- posted by proudfoot

Top 19. Dec 11, 2001 9:16 PM

» Michael_Martinez - Re: Response to discussion with Kharan

In response to message posted by proudfoot:

Interesting reconstruction, but I believe it's written somewhere that Isildur arrived on the scene of the battle very late. Not sure of where that was published.

-- posted by Michael_Martinez

Top 20. Dec 15, 2001 11:11 AM

» proudfoot - Re: Re: Response to discussion with Kharan

In response to message posted by Michael_Martinez:

I don't remember reading that in any of the published works. Would that be from one of Tolkien's letters? It's probably one of the multiple alternate versions that Tolkien generated for his background-stories. Four days from now we'll know Peter Jackson's take on it, anyway. ^_^
The Borders near my home sells the collection of Tolkien's letters. I will buy a copy with my Xmas money, so I can better debate you on applicable details. ^_^

-- posted by proudfoot

Top 21. Dec 17, 2001 7:45 PM

» Michael_Martinez - Re: Re: Re: Response to discussion with Kharan

In response to message posted by proudfoot:

The passage I had in mind does not mention Isildur after all. This is the first version of Elrond's historical narrative for the Ring, published in The Return of the Shadow, in which he says:

...And at last Sauron came out in person, and wrestled with Gilgalad, and Elendil came to his rescue, and both were mortally wounded; but Sauron was thrown down, and his bodily shape was destroyed....

In the published account, Elrond says:

...I beheld the last combat on the slopes of Orodruin, where Gil-galad died, and Elendil fell, and Narsil broke beneath him; but Sauron himself was overthrown, and Isildur cut the Ring from his hand with the hilt-shard of his father's sword, and took it for his own.

It would appear that, unless I have forgotten some other account of this final battle between Sauron and his Second Age foes, I inferred Isildur's late arrival from the combination of these two descriptions of the event.

-- posted by Michael_Martinez

Top 22. Jan 2, 2002 11:09 AM

» proudfoot - Re: Re: Re: Re: Response to discussion with Kharan

In response to message posted by Michael_Martinez:

Very well, we have decided upon Isildur's presence at the final showdown at Mount Doom. Working from that, what did you think of the battle scene as depicted in the Prologue of the FOTR movie? It was a great spectacle, and a nice harbinger of battles scenes in TTT and ROTK movies. I wanted to see more of it myself, but well, on with the show! ^_^ I did like the overall layout of the battle, with Sauron's army seeking to create an opening for his escape, and the lines of Elves and Men deployed to halt and contain it. Sauron's appearance and performance in the battle was not far off expectations. Elendil and Gil-galad were present for only a brief time, although there may be a minute or so more in the director's cut. Narsil's destruction was a bit underwhelming, but Isildur's use of the hilt-shard to remove the Ring & its finger was good in its compressed-sequence presentation.

-- posted by proudfoot