Beware that baker in the kitchen!
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- proudfoot
- Adanmel
- jellicle
- desertblue
- jellicle
- desertblue
- Michael_Martinez
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» proudfoot - Oo, those awful orcs!
This article, Michael, is one of your best ever! It's essays like this that keep me coming back to this site and engaging in feedback with you. The article covers one of Tolkien's strengths as a fantasy writer, which is the ability to make moral issues and values the underlying motivation for character actions. When the chips are down, the heroes and villains are not bashing each other for gold pieces, a hot babe in a chainmail bikini, a nice manor in the country, and a place on the King's council. Something else wells up from the soul, and guides the character to their fate, whether good or bad. (Many heroic fantasy stories lack that sort of depth, especially the stories which formed the basis for a certain famous role-playing game. But I digress...)It's a telling point that the Orcs are not just presented as faceless minions of Evil, who happen to exist just so the heroes can hack 'em in the name of Good for the amusement of the reader. The Orcs have several moments in the main story, plus the Appendices, and when featured they express ambitions,hopes, and fears that are not non-human, although they are expressed in ways that normal humans would not readily countenance. Ugluk and Grishnakh both try to carry out the orders given to them, but Ugluk wins because he has more and fiercer followers. Ugluk himself is a "First Sergeant From Hell", but he can shepherd his unit with its valuable prisoners across Rohan, and very nearly escape, Riders or no Riders. His fellow Uruk-hai of the White Hand are proud of their capabilities as warriors in the service of their well-liked leader "Sharkey". Shagrat and Gorbag chew the fat like veterans anywhere, and Shagrat is trustworthy enough to be entrusted with the command of an important border fortress. He also is able to fulfill his duty and take Frodo's gear to Barad-Dur, although his report may not be well received. Azog is able to somehow unite the scattered Orcs of the Mountains into a fighting force that can contest the Dwarves for control of the deep places of the earth.
So then, why are Orcs "Evil" and Men, Elves, etc. "Good"? Probably because the Orcs have never been brought up to recognize that there are differing standards of ethical/moral conduct.The values of the typical orc band are the code of the wolf pack. The strongest and biggest controls the others, tells them what to do, and takes the greatest portion for himself. Those who support and obey him (always "him" in this sort of story)receive part of the spoils. The others had best stay out of the way... This sort of society allows for survival in a harsh climate, but isn't going to produce people who can live by the Golden Rule or the Ten Commandments. (Not the Mosaic version, anyway. Sauron probably has his own warped version of The Commandments to enforce his rule when he isn't looking.) The fighting between various orcs occurs in LOTR when these pack identities are challenged in some way. Even Sauron's seemingly omniscent rule in Order can't prevent them. The Fellowship also comes to grief in Moria when they violate the "territory" of the occupying orcs and precipitate a fight with the Balrog's followers.
Then again, Orcs might be nasty because they know they're not "Good". Let us all acknowledge it, we associate "good" and "bad" with as many external characteristics as internal ones. Beautiful, tall, bright, colorful=Good in descriptive shorthand. Even Orcs that strive for something beyond the next raid or battle must know how far below the level of Mannish/Elvish/ Dwarvish/Hobbitish society they fall. Do Orcs for the most part look tall and handsome? No. Do they build large, impressive cities with beautiful buildings? No. Do they make pretty and attractive things of craft? No! Can they walk in the bright Sun without feeling ill, or see their reflection in a brook without feeling disgust? No!! It probably wouldn't take much thought of this kind for the average Orc chieftan to call his followers and lead them forth to burn and slay.
Orcs never see themselves as victimizers. They feel that they are the victims, oppressed by other folk who deny their rightful place in the world. Of course, the Orcs fail to realize that spitefully wrecking someone else's hard-won place is counter-productive and invites reprisal, but their skewed view of the world does not allow this kind of thought. It is the definitive mark of an evil being that it persist in doing what it feels is best for itself, regardless of the effect on its neighbors or surroundings. Orcs, in the end, mimic their evil masters by adopting the view that the end justifies the means used to win the reward. Morgoth, Sauron, and Saruman don't have to use the whip too much. The carrot of shiny pretty things,slaves to do all the scut work, and the vandal's joy of wrecking somehing just to see it broken,is enough impetus to send Orcs into battle every time. (Azog and Bolg didn't need a Ringwraith minder to send their armies after Dwarven treasure. They did it on their own, doubtless with Sauron's far-off approval.)
Is it possible to still pity the Orcs, as Gandalf seems able to do? Yes, actually. The Orcs have made their choice in life, and it is a poor one indeed. But still, the Dark Lords have made that choice inevitable by making the Orcs into their present form and keeping them there. Orcs start out tending towards Evil because they are born that way, the way Men are born tending towards Good. An Orc is born doomed to live the life of an Orc, without much hope for improvement, and that really sucks. Who wants to live the life of an Orc? The final question is not that Orcs have choice, it's whether they were ever given a choice in the first place. That's the reason why the creation of orcs was the worst of Morgoth's offenses against Iluvatar.
-- posted by proudfoot
» Adanmel - Your conclusion Michael is perfect.
You identify some of the theological points that Tolkien identified and bring in the notion of Christian thought which while not openly apparent in Middle Earth is very much at the root level of Tolkien's creations due to the fact that he was a practicing Catholic. Orc's would have free will because the premise of Tolkien's creation was to create a mythology of our earth's past. Illuvatar is God, the Valar are the Angelic spirits and the Elves very much like saints. I can envision orcs in the fourth age wishing to live their own lives, some refusing the call of other 'saurons' or servants of Melkor and choosing to find their own destiny. They have a hard road ahead of them and three ages of bad press to work againsnt.-- posted by Adanmel
» jellicle - Another possible answer
In response to message posted by Adanmel:I'd have to respectfully disagree that the Elves are like saints, saints are humans not angels. I do think that the Elves can be representative of angels and that is where the answer to your question lies, IMHO, Michael.
The Bible tells us that some of the angels fell and followed Lucifer when he was cast out of heaven, and while God had a plan of salvation for fallen men, He did not offer any means of redemption for fallen angels. Thus Tolkien gives us Orcs which he tells us were once angels and he also does not show any type of 'redemption' for them.
-- posted by jellicle
» desertblue - gods and angels
In response to message posted by Lavransdatter:I thought the Maiar were the angel-like beings and the Valar were sub-deities?
-- posted by desertblue
» jellicle - Re: gods and angels
In response to message posted by desertblue:You are beyond my ken there my friend, I am a Tolkien novice and have not yet explored the writings beyond LOTR, which is why I'm now exploring this wonderful site.
But is it not possible to look at just the LOTR and see in it the analogies I've made?
-- posted by jellicle
» desertblue - Re: Re: gods and angels
In response to message posted by Lavransdatter:true enough, and you are pretty darned close, i think.
I think what I said above is what most people are supposing, although Michael could elucidate this better and I might be way off.
-- posted by desertblue
» Michael_Martinez - Re: Re: Re: gods and angels
In response to message posted by desertblue:My musings concern the nature/redeemability of the Orcs within the scope of Tolkien's world. I make no effort to relate his fiction to the real world. Not in the sense suggested above.
-- posted by Michael_Martinez
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