Shhh! It's a secret ring!
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- Niggle
- Eldanuumea
- Eldanuumea
- Michael_Martinez
- dkwolf
- dkwolf
- desertblue
- desertblue
- JohnLocke059
- Michael_Martinez
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» Niggle - Re: Re: Rings of Power
In response to message posted by Michael_Martinez:There are one or two inconsistencies that have always intrigued me:
Two lines from the Ring Verse are engraved on the one ring. The characters are elvish, but the language is that of Mordor.
Early in the Two Towers Aragorn says that Sauron does not use the Elf runes or permit them to be used.
Also if the two lines were engraved on the Ring wouldn't that point to Sauron as the author of the verse? (it does have a rather bleak and foreboding incantatory flavour - not Elvish at all, surely). I favour Sauron as the author, perhaps the words were his incantation - intended to bind all the other rings when he put on the one. Doesn't Gandalf say "out of the black years come the words that the Elven-smiths of Eregion heard, and knew they had been betrayed" (forgive errors - I don't have my copy with me) before he speaks the two lines in the original black speech at the council of Elrond.
I am surprised Gildor got off so lightly - I can imagine his debrief by Elrond when he let slip that Frodo was astray bearing a great burden without guidance, and he had not thought it his business to go with him to Rivendell. Irresponsible I call it - particularly since the whole problem with the rings is largely the Elves fault anyway.
Finally, and totally off the subject - what about some speculation on education in the Shire in Bilbo/Frodo's time? Bilbo, Frodo, Merry, Pippin are all literate. Sam has been taught to read by Bilbo (interesting element of class creeping in there) Since the Shire was largely a reflection of elements of English country life around the early twentieth century, one imagines that Frodo, Merry and Pippin had probably been to school (in fact doesn't Gandalf refer to Merry and Pippin playing truant?) Sam and his father would probably have had little or no formal education, but I imagine the "important" and wealthier families (including the Sackville-Baggins) probably had a formal eduction of some sort. However, I doubt that the same sort of education was available in Gondor or Rohan, which are in many ways less "modern" than the Shire.
-- posted by Niggle
» Eldanuumea - Re: Re: Re: Rings of Power
In response to message posted by Niggle:I've wondered about educational practices among the various ME groups. Most of the societies seem to be apprentice-type places, learning by following and doing. I'd like to hear more on this.
-- posted by Eldanuumea
» Eldanuumea - Re: Re: Re: Re: Rings of Power
In response to message posted by Eldanuumea:There seems to be some vagueness about when Gandalf suspected the nature of Bilbo's ring and Saruman's interest in it. According to the timeline in the Appendices, Saruman started to watxh the Shire and place his agents in Bree and Southfarthing in 2953. I think Gandalf and the Rangers would have noticed the presence of these agents and would have become suspicious. Surely Gandalf didn't wait until after 3000 to bring Aragorn in on this. Yet in the book, Gandalf seems to be taken by surprise at the treachery of Saruman. Aragorn was Chieftain....I don't think very much would have gone down in Eriador without his knowledge...at least after 2980 when he returned from Gondor.
-- posted by Eldanuumea
» Michael_Martinez - Re: Rings of Power
In response to message posted by Niggle:The engraving on the One Ring was made with Tengwar (scriptive lettering), not Cirth (runes). So there is no inconsistency between Aragorn's statement (regarding the helms of Sauron's Orcs, which were emblazoned with an S-rune) and the adornment of the One Ring.
As for the Ring-verse itself, since Sauron had helped in the making of the Seven and the Nine, he would have known they were not intended for the other races. So, at the very least, the Ring-verse cannot be dated to the period before the War of the Elves and Sauron even if we assume that Sauron composed it.
The rhyme comes from Elvish lore, according to Gandalf, but that does not mean that it all had to be composed at one time or by the same person. I believe the reader is supposed to understand that whomever composed the verse simply took the words spoken by Sauron (in the Black Speech, but obviously translated) and incorporated them into the longer rhyme.
As for education in the Shire, I doubt there would have been much in the way of a public school system, if any. The Shire folk were in a transitional state, socially. They had once been a very clan-oriented group, and some of the wealthier families were still very large and clan-like (particularly the Tooks and Brandybucks). These families would probably have ensured that their children were taught their letters inside their own estates.
Smaller but still wealthy families, or familes spread across the Shire, such as the Bagginses, may have relied either upon private tutelage or sending their children to live with other families for a period of time. Frodo, of course, was raised in Brandy Hall for the first twelve years of his life. And after he was adopted by Bilbo, Bilbo would have had plenty of time to serve as his private tutor.
-- posted by Michael_Martinez
» dkwolf - The Great Elven Shame
The act of creating the rings of power, in and of itself would be an act of extreme rebellion. That the elves wanted to control the effects of time itself, a immortal race granted the gift of immortality by the one himself, sought a means to in which keep things as they were.I can almost picture the moral delima's the three rings represented to Gil-galad and Galadriel. In defiance of the valar once again, the Nolder bent the rules you could say, when Celebrimbor created the three. One one hand, here was a act of treason against the one himself, almost reeking of something one would expect from Morgoth or Sauron. The one stated clearly, and the valar echoed it many times, the immortals in middle-earth would fade or leave for the immortal lands. Now, with the creation of the rings, they had the very power to slow down time itself.
Its not surprising that they tried hard to keep the knowledge of the rings a secret. Imagine the how differently history would have been had Ar-Pharazon and the other Numerian Nobles had any clue that the elves had artifacts that could slow down the affects of age. Their whole downfall came about mostly because of a deep, consuming desire to gain immortality.
Its not hard to figure that Gil-galad and the other elven lords remaining in middle-earth could very well have feared and expected a all out assault on them by their human allies to gain the rings.
Not only could they not admit to wrongfully creating them, they didn't dare openly acknowledge they had such items.
We know that Celebrimbor created the 3 rings in secret, even from that of most, if not all of his fellow smiths. When he realized his mistake, and began to understand the dire situation his nation was now facing, Celebrimbor turned to the one person he knew and trusted the most, Galadriel. I think that its possible that Galadriel counseled Celebrimbor to remove the rings as far from the spot of creation as he could, knowing that sooner or later, the dark lord would come for them.
By sending the other two to Gll-galad, Celebrimbor probably had to explain in person just what had happened, and what was probably coming. Gil-galad was no slouch, and could read the writing on the wall. Sauron had tried to take control of the elven lords those rings would have most likely ended up with, not to mention that suddenly, he realized middle-earth was once again, threatened by the dark lord.
It makes perfect sense that Cirdan, elder and wiser then Gil-galad, probably chief advisor to the elven king, and Elrod, his 2nd or 3rd in command would have known about them. Cirdan from his position, and Gil-galad figuring that if Elrond was to lead the defense/attack against Sauron needed to know the truth so he understood the peril they faced, even if the majority of the elves had no clue.
As for later in history. Gandalf probly gained his first serious knowledge about the elven rings when Cirdan gave him his ring. Galadriel did say to Frodo that the possessors of the rings would know who the other bearers were. Probably the connecting magic inlaid into them that allowed Sauron to bind them all to the one's.
As for how Boromir and Faramir knew about them, the possibility that comes to my mind would be something like this.
The story of Isiador cutting the ring from the dark lords hand was probably a royal bed time story if nothing else. Its a very important, serious part of their history, so something of it would have been passed on.
Added to that, Deanthor struck me as the sort of man who would want to know what Gandalf was rooting around in the records for. I would think, that after gandalf found the scroll and read it, Denthor did the same. Maybe even reading the important parts, in his mind anyway, to his son Boromir, before he left on his quest. Faramir probably did find out what he knew from things said or not said by Gandalf, and the same stories of fame and valor that would have been taught to any sons of the Stewards.
All three men came across as being quite capable, even Boromir's aggressive attitude aside, between them, they puzzled out or figured out the connections. They knew about the ring, and what folklore and story telling had passed on, plus the scroll. They knew enough that Boromir and Denther thought it could/should be used to save Gondor, and that Faramir knew enough that it was something to avoid, and that if Gandalf had set the hobbits out to destroy it, then that was the best course of action. And possibly he understood the ring was the bane of man and no man could ever truly make good use of it.
-- posted by dkwolf
» dkwolf - Did the 9 ringwraiths use their rings till death?
Something that'd puzzled me for awhile. I'm not sure I read the passage right, but somebody somewhere comments that Sauron holds the 9 rings. Does this mean his wraiths have no more need for them?If so, would he be free to give them to others had he survived the end of the 3rd age? And what about the witch-king, his #1 ringwraith. With his death, would Sauron, had he the wraiths ring, been able to give it to another, basically to create another one?
-- posted by dkwolf
» desertblue - Gildor
In response to message posted by Niggle:Good point, Niggle. I am also a bit curious about Gildor: his messengers got to Bombadil and Elrond/Glorfindel - which proved well for the hobbits - but why didn't Gildor see fit to at least send an elf of his company with them? What an oversight!
About hobbit literacy: Pippin's dad was the Thain, and Merry's father was the Master of Brandy Hall. It makes sense these important hobbits would provide some kind of education for their sons.
-- posted by desertblue
» desertblue - Saruman's Ring
When Gandalf seeks out Saruman in Book One, he mentions seeing a ring on Saruman's finger. And Gandalf also reports that Saruman, in his speech about "Saruman of Many Colors", calls himself "Saruman the Ring-Maker".So, after studying the arts of his enemy, he attempts to create his own ring. Yet we never hear anything else about this ring. Does it have any powers? Did Tolkien forget to take this further? What is the deal?
-- posted by desertblue
» JohnLocke059 - The Ring in Numenor
I'm curious...did Sauron have the One Ring with him when he went to captivity in Numenor? I'm not sure which article it was but I remember reading somewhere on here that it would have been easy for Sauron to deceive and manipulate the Numenoreans because he had the Ring. If he did have it there, what happened to the ring in the destruction? Sauron's bodily form is said to have perished, so doesn't it stand to reason that if he was wearing the Ring it would have been caught up in the wreck, just like whatever clothes he might have been wearing?-- posted by JohnLocke059
» Michael_Martinez - Re: The Ring in Numenor
In response to message posted by JohnLocke059:Yes. Tolkien confirmed in at least one letter that Sauron had the Ring with him (and that it was through the power of the Ring that Sauron was able to corrupt the Numenoreans).
-- posted by Michael_Martinez
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