Where have all the dragons gone?
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- Neithan
- Michael_Martinez
- mkletch
- Michael_Martinez
- dkwolf
- Orthogonon
- Michael_Martinez
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» Neithan - Dragons and gold
Nice to see you using my e-mail tag as inspiration in your article- it is always hard for exceedingly great and powerful men (or beings) who delude themselves with dreams of invincibility to accept defeat, but that is not what I wanted to debate.I agree with you a long way, actually until the "Gold-Theory". However, I believe that what Tolkien did when mentioning gold he was just tossing off an example that would capture imagination and thus make it easier to fathom what he meant. To believe otherwise would imply that Melkor did indeed make certain parts of Ëa alone- that no others sang in certain parts of the creation, but it is my impression that all sang, discordant or not, that all were parts of the creation. Thus, there is no substance that would be particularly suited to sate or feed Morgoth's spirit as infused in the Dragons, not gold nor anything else. If Melkor was part of the entirity of The Song and did not "sing" anything alone basalt, soil or water would be as suited to feed the dragons new strength as anything else.
Now it may be so that Melkor sang greed into the creation of everything he tainted and that greed is inherently evil and that the dragons could thus feed on the possession of gold and the greed for it but that is, I think, another discussion.
Rather I think the dragons would have a certain level of power according to their different individual power and the infusion of evil spirit they could get from a superior evil being- late third age that was Sauron, as he bent his will on directing them (just as he did his own minions) they would stir and become more active and powerful. However, they would require so much more of his strength to control as they were both very powerful individuals but also infused with the spirit of Morgoth, Sauron's master and mentor. It may even have required a clash of wills- he would have to overcome them just as they would have to overcome a great warrior, who knows? I do believe, though, that he could never gain full control over them but would rather direct their energies and attentions.
-- posted by Neithan
» Michael_Martinez - Re: Dragons and gold
In response to message posted by Neithan:Although I'm quite familiar with your signature, I was made aware of the Augustus anecdote many years before getting involved with the Internet. So it was merely a convenient example and not an inspiration.
But Tolkien's discussion of the Melkor-element and its concentration in gold was quite specific. Melkor didn't create gold -- none of the Valar created any part of Ea, which all came from the will of Iluvatar. Melkor simply permeated himself with gold, identifying it with himself.
Gold, since it was useful for Sauron's "magic", would therefore be useful for other forms of "magic", essentially drawing upon Melkor's strength.
Nothing in Ea comes from the Music of the Ainur. It all comes from the will of Iluvatar and the subsequent actions of the Ainur and the Children.
Whether the dragons required gold to sustain themselves is anyone's guess now that Tolkien is gone, but the available facts do fit the interpretation.
-- posted by Michael_Martinez
» mkletch - Re: Dragons and gold
In response to message posted by Michael_Martinez:I really liked the extension of the Morgothian influence into the 'why do dragons hoard gold' question that no author has explained very well. The best to date was Barbara Hambly in Dragonsbane, but it seemed ... invented. In Tolkien, there is a lot of 'unpublished' material (the HOME series, letters, etc.) that extend the few works he published. Even in the Seigfried tales, if I remember correctly, Grendal only hoards the gold because it is the particular golden hoard stolen ages before from the Rhine.
I do agree partially with Neithan, though. I think the comment about gold and the Morgoth influence was merely an example, not pinpointing a particularly strong correlation. The same might be said about any substance in Ea that was not 'governed' by another of the Valar (e.g. water, air, light). Bringing together a lot of gold might create greed, but bringing together a lot of iron might create violence (iron weapons); a lot of hard stone might be the reason there is increased crime in cities.
Gold was chosen for the example only because it was the element for Sauron's ring. If Sauron made his ring out of steel, then Tolkien would have referenced steel and not gold. That dragons hoard gold is only coinidence to the Morgoth-element argument; everyone hoards gold (elves, dwarves, Numenoreans, etc.).
But, gold was chosen by Sauron; I just believe the link is weaker than you suggest. Morgoth would not have limited himself to permeating gold, or concentrating on it - permeated everything! Maybe it was that gold is really dense so it had more of Morgoth in it ... ok, I'm being dense now. That is way beyond Tolkien.
That dragons could have been maintaining themselves, though, with the echo of Morgoth-element in the hoarded gold is a very interesting, clever argument. It links the very old (First Age, unpublished material) to new material (LotR, other unpublished material, Letters) in a very subtle fashion. I count this among your best articles.
Fletch!
-- posted by mkletch
» Michael_Martinez - Re: Dragons and gold
In response to message posted by mkletch:Who knows what Tolkien thought of it all? A lot of things may have come together for him in retrospect. But though you are certainly right in saying it could just as easily have been iron, as matters stand, what Tolkien decided (ultimately) was that gold had more of the Morgothian element than silver. So gold clearly has a higher concentration than some other substances.
The article is best viewed as a "what if Tolkien looked in this direction" kind of thing. This is one example of what he might have come up with, given what he had written before.
-- posted by Michael_Martinez
» dkwolf - Dragons and Men
While I won't sit here and claim to have a vast knowledge of what Tolken may or may not have meant when he created dragons and the various tales including them. I have noticed something interesting about those that have been spoken off. I can't help but wonder if "Another power" did not lend a hand or have been part of what led to the demise of those dragons.It seems to me, that men tended to be the ones who outright killed them, more often then the other races. I've read were several dragons were wounded or driven off by elves and dwarves, and granted, many of them may very well have perished at the hands of said peoples. The dragons we know most about, seemed to have met their deaths at the hands of man.
You wrote in your essay about Bard's meeting and defeating of smaug, and I agree with much of what you said. I can't help but wonder if there wasn't another power at work. Fate can sometimes be nothing more then dumb luck, but in Bards case, here was a man, with just the right history, armed with a single arrow of possible magical creation, added to his birth right of being able to understand the thrush. One has to wonder how the thrust knew just where to find Bard, at the right moment in time.
I think that the possibility that "The One", once again showed his subtle hand in things by placing all the "right" things into place. I know that the topic has come up before, in other essays and discussions, but how much more different had things been during the war of the rings, had Bard missed his shot, not had that arrow, or had Smaugs missing scale been placed on his left toe, instead of his breast? Odds are, the dragon would have wasted the town completely, returned to the mountain, rooted out the dwarves and one small hobbit and made a light snack of them, then curled up on his bed of gold and took another 100 year snooze. I can't help but think that neither the Elven king, nor Dain would have sent armies knowing the big lizard was still sitting on his magical pile of gold and jewels. Neither would have the orcs bothered to have shown up. Orcs never seem to get mentioned in any references as dragon killers of any degree, the evil nature of both not with standing.
Just like Turin's ambush of his dragon. Granted he was probably one of the most powerful of men of his time, or since for that matter. A dragon, even in its death throes should have made toast out of him, or smashed him like a armored bug. The fact that his sword, like Bards arrow happened to find the right spots to do the right damage makes me think something more then just dumb luck, or even ability was at work in those cases.
Even Earenilds, forgive my poor spelling, its nearly 4am, heroic battle from the deck of his ship against the biggest, baddest dragon of them all, he was still, even though blessed and gifted, a man after all.
I can't help but wonder, if Dragons, like the one ring, were basically artifacts of great power, endowed by morgorth But then, what do I know
-- posted by dkwolf
» Orthogonon - Excellent article.
Excellent article. Nitpicker that i am, i would like point out one slight error regarding the following quote:"The Noldor most likely didn't have dragons in mind when they made their weapons"
I believe you were making reference to Turin's weapon Anglachel or Gurthang. Eol, the elf who forged it was not of the Noldor. He was a Telerian elf. Maeglin his son could be considered a Noldorin elf as he was half Noldor and half Teleri (Aredhel was of the Noldor).
Once again, interesting article.
-- posted by Orthogonon
» Michael_Martinez - Re: Excellent article.
In response to message posted by Orthogonon:That part of the article was speculating on whether any of the weapons of the First Age had an equal chance of killing a dragon. The sentence you quote, "The Noldor most likely didn't have dragons in mind when they made their weapons" therefore is not concerned with Turin's sword. The reference to Turin in the previous paragraph sets up the question of what it takes to kill a dragon. My point was that Turin benefitted from the element of surprise. Glaurung had received a belly wound previously which did not prove fatal.
-- posted by Michael_Martinez
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