Early Fourth Age

Top 2. Aug 29, 2000 4:25 PM

» Gilthalion - A wealth of information...

(I apologise that I didn't look more closely at earlier questions for some of mine have been largely answered here already!)

Concerning Eldarion, Michael Martinez wrote:

Well, he died about 100 years after Aragorn, and he could not have been born sooner than the year 3020 of the Third Age (about 1 year before the Fourth Age began). Aragorn lived to be 210 years old (according to the Second Edition of THE LORD OF THE RINGS) and he ruled for 120 years. So, if Eldarion did not live longer than his father, he had to be born no earlier than Fourth Age 11.
Basically, he lived at most 221 years, but may have lived less than that, and perhaps had a lifespan of only 200 years or so. But that would, of course, still be a very long time.

(Mr. Martinez has also already answered another of my questions...)

What became of the Blue Wizards (and Radagast)?

Some people have begun to accept as "canon" that the Blue Wizards actually appeared in Middle-earth during the Second Age, and that they failed in their missions, or that they were active against Sauron in the Third Age and helped restrain his might by fomenting rebellions in the east. These ideas come from Tolkien himself, from material published in The Peoples of Middle-earth.
My own feeling is that the Blue Wizards must remain a mystery. The idea they could have been sent to Middle-earth in the Second Age seems unlikely to me, and I believe Tolkien would have rejected the idea eventually.
But one should remember that the essays published in Unfinished Tales in the section titled "The Istari" are also not Tolkien's final thoughts (and they contradict each other in some places). So it's not sufficient to say they probably failed of their missions. Tolkien says in one essay that even Radagast failed, but in The Lord of the Rings Radagast does assist in preparing for the final assault by helping Gandalf. It seems a little harsh to suggest that he actually failed, and Tolkien seems to have reneged on the idea.
Let us suppose, therefore, that the final story would have become something like this: five Istari came to Middle-earth in the Third Age, and that of these Saruman fell away into evil while Radagast and the Blue Wizards only partially fulfilled their missions, failing to bring Men or Elves to action in the end.
Tolkien's fear that the Blue Wizards may have founded cults of magic was expressed in a letter in 1958. He did not begin working on The New Shadow until several years later. The idea that the Blue Wizards may have arrived earlier than the others was developed late in Tolkien's life, after he had abandoned work on The New Shadow. This idea emerged when Tolkien was beginning to alter many of Middle-earth's facts, and that is why I'm reluctant to endorse it whole-heartedly, although it contradicts nothing. Much of this material was in fact inconsistent with the published works, and it may be that Tolkien was envisioning all the changes collectively, though they occurred over a period of several years (say, from 1968 through 1972).
In the end, I think Radagast must eventually have returned to the Uttermost West, and probably also the Blue Wizards. They need not be a source of new evil and, in fact, if either of them (or both) were to have been a source of new evil, then they would have restored an element of the fantastic to Middle-earth which supposedly died with Sauron.

-- posted by Gilthalion

Top 3. Aug 31, 2000 10:12 PM

» Michael_Martinez - Smaug was not the last dragon

I don't have the reference handy, but in one of his letters Tolkien wrote that Smaug was not the last of the dragons.

-- posted by Michael_Martinez

Top 4. Jul 7, 2002 6:27 PM

» Olorin82 - Re: The Istari

they came from over the sea out of the uttermost West in the year 1000 of the third Age;they belonged solely to the third Age and then departed. WE must assume that they were all Mair. They are immortal yet their number is unknown, the chiefs were five however.

Two there were clad in sea blue; the Istari being clad in bodies of middle-earth, may have fallen away from their purposes (ultimately to vanquish Sauron) and do evil being ensnared by the Enemy( REMEMBER SARUMAN AND THE PALANTIR?)

It is said in an essay that the Ithryn Luin, named as Alatar and Pallando, passed into the East, since (i assume ) that they knew most of the East and were destined to travel there since they are are associated with Orome.

This is guess work, however i think that they may have played a part in the New Shadow( which was still in devellopement in JRRT's mind)since, if they are Mair, they could sway men's mind to their will much like Saruman; not even the Nazguls united with their Morgul Lord could vanquish Gandalf; and two of them...
In the New Shadow,(the tale ressembles that of the downfall of Numeanor in it's beginning)their is a satanic movement in Gondor which, i think, may have been started by the Blue Wizards.

Also, remember that the Numenoreans knew that the earth was round and they had other colonies than middle-earth..

Hope this help's a bit!

-- posted by Olorin82