Them Dwarves, Them Dwarves, Part II
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- Michael_Martinez
- Narwen
- Michael_Martinez
- Narwen
- isengar
- Michael_Martinez
- isengar
- erunyauve
- isengar
- The_Limper
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» Michael_Martinez - Re: Question about this article....
In response to message posted by Narwen:Pengolod? Pengolod, you say?
He is briefly mentioned in a few places. I am at work as I write this and don't have the books to check, but I believe that The War of the Jewels and The Peoples of Middle-earth both mention him in some capacity. He may also be in Morgoth's Ring. His name is sometimes spelled Pengolodh.
-- posted by Michael_Martinez
» Narwen - Re: Re: Question about this article....
In response to message posted by Michael_Martinez:Thank you, but your article "Them Dwarves, Them Dwarves" has some information on him which I don't remember seeing in canon,namely:
A. His half Noldo/half Sinda heritage
B. His association with the Lambengolmor
C. His living in Eregion at one point
D. His having some knowledge of Khuzdul
These are the things I am intrigued by, and I'm not sure where in the HoME books to look for them .....
-- posted by Narwen
» Michael_Martinez - Re: Re: Re: Question about this article....
In response to message posted by Narwen:More than likely (and I must apologize for forgetting about these questions), the material concerning the points you mention is to be found in The War of the Jewels, which contains a great deal of linguistic material. Another strong possibility would be Morgoth's Ring. The name Pengolod goes back a long way, but nothing concerning Eregion would predate The Lord of the Rings.
In fact, the Eregion sources are pretty much limited to:
- The Lord of the Rings
- The Silmarillion
- Unfinished Tales
- Morgoth's Ring
- The War of the Jewels
- The Peoples of Middle-earth
Now, there is also a little bit of information in the four volumes of HOME which deal with the writing of The Lord of the Rings, but you won't find much useful information in them (concerning Eregion). And Pengolod is not mentioned in either LoTR or The Silmarillion. I doubt he is mentioned in Unfinished Tales. I don't think he is mentioned in the last book, either, unless one of the very late essays says something about him.
So, you're left with Morgoth's Ring and The War of the Jewels. Earlier discussions about a Pengolodh/Pengolod, performing a very similar role, pertain to earlier mythologies.
-- posted by Michael_Martinez
» isengar - A bit of this, a bit of that and getting nowhere
Where the hell are the Lambengolmor mentioned? The story of Pengolod is enticing. It’s the first time I hear mention of actual Elvish scholars—a great find. I always figured there had to be, but that Fëanor was the founder was intriguing. Being a Master of Tongues himself, Tolkien had to represent his kind somewhere. It’s interesting because language is the root from which all knowledge grows. It’s the study of language that reveals to us a culture and its artwork. All human societies evolve from language. Words are like the single cell organisms that form us. It is therefore natural though still revealing that Tolkien chose his Elvish scholars to be linguists.Another fact I came across was that the Marachians are the Third House of the Edain. Ok, it’s from this house that we get Turin and Tuor. Fine. Beor I’m guessing is the First House of the Edain from which we get Beren. Cool. So where’s the Second House (if I’m right that it’s the second) and what is its role in the development of Men in the First Age and beyond? Are they another one of Tolkien's loose ends?
The Folk of Bor are a paradox. Nowhere else have the Easterlings ever been on the side of good. What is the deal with them? Is their relocation to Eriador and confrontations with nicer people what changed them? Did they assimilate into the more peaceful society of the West? I would love to know if there’s more information on them. Until then I would like to think that they were conquered by the Love of the Elves. I guess Love does save and is the way to go. Maybe instead of fighting they should have handed out marijuana and thrown a concert a la Woodstock ’69 (not the recent ones, they were a disgrace).
The Longbeards held the torch for Dwarves but they’re still despicable. Using men to fight their war with Orcs. They deserve their demise in the Third Age. All those years of prosperity and no praise to Iluvatar. If they had fabricated a religious doctrine to justify their pursuit of wealth, they would be no different from us in the real world. They would be “chosen” for fortune and Khazad-dûm would be their Holy Land.
Tolkien does not appear all too consistent with the Dwarves, but that’s not a problem. Their relations with others always seem to be fluctuating. I guess it’s because they're talkers and for the most part full of it. “I am eternally indebted to you for helping me regain my wealth. What? You want a cut of the profits? Screw you! I hate you. You are now my sworn enemy.” I mean how fickle can these guys be?
On a side note, who’s Amroth and how did he get to rule Lorien? I thought Celeborn and Galadriel were top dogs there. Sometimes the nonsequiturs in these articles really throw me for a spin. Pit stops are sweet as long as we get back on the same road again.
Finally, Sauron did not recover the other two rings in the War of the Dwarves and Orcs. The Dwarves of the other houses state clearly they fought with hopes of recovering a “lost treasure”—the last ring of power taken from Thrain thought to still reside in Moria somewhere. Why would they do that if they had their own? I would rather go with the previous suggestion. The Long Winter is a good contrivance by Sauron to get Orcs into Eriador and recover the two rings. A century is ample enough time to accomplish that goal. Unfortunately though, Tolkien wasn’t able to give these matters enough thought so we can’t conclusively clear this mess up. Or maybe the Dwarves didn’t tell him because they didn’t want us to know where their hoards are stashed, the selfish bastards. I know I would have loved to hear about the four other Smaugs that swallowed the remaining rings. Dragons are nasty but they sure make for some epic storytelling. Just read _Beowulf_.
P.S. By the way, the fact that any Tolkien fan who isn’t an established and respected artist feels s/he has the jurisdiction to write or re-write any aspect of his mythology is frightening and not just a little revolting. Unless it’s for his/her own private enjoyment, of course. But if s/he’s getting money or any sort of favorable attention for it, that’s as despicable as a gold-hungry dwarf.
-- posted by isengar
» Michael_Martinez - Re: A bit of this, a bit of that and getting nowhere
In response to message posted by isengar:Isengar, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but some of your comments are a little toxic. Please bear in mind that Suite101 has some rules for civility and that I, as topic editor, have to enforce those rules. This Web site is intended for people of all ages and disposition.
-- posted by Michael_Martinez
» isengar - We stop when the yeoman's horn blows
In response to message posted by Michael_Martinez:NOTE: Some portions of this reply were edited by me. Michael
However, I do admit some of my word choices were poor and wish I had waited a day before posting them. Nontheless I stand behind my postscript 110%. Profiting from any artist's work without paying proper royalties is not only nefarious, I believe it's also against the law.
-- posted by isengar
» erunyauve - Re: A bit of this, a bit of that and getting nowhere
In response to message posted by isengar:The Lambengolmor appear in The War of the Jewels, Quendi and Eldar (p 396-7 pub. Houghton-Mifflin). Here are also the details of Pengolod (spelt Pengolodh in this text) - his half-Sindarin origin and association with Khazad-dum.
The Second House of the Edain is that of the Haladin, from whence came the mother of Huor and Hurin. The Easterlings were not by nature evil - they came later than the first houses into Beleriand, and many were corrupted by Morgoth and his lieutenant (Sauron) before they made it to the west. They also were not befriended by the Avari east of Hithaeglir, as were many of the Edain. As for Bor's people, they were presumably killed in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad. All of this is in The Silmarillion.
The Dwarves had good reason not to worship Iluvatar - they were not his Children, as were men and elves. They were the Children of Aule. The Dwarves saved what remained of the Noldor in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, and did the same when Sauron destroyed Eregion. With men, they were allies, for the most part - they traded weapons for food. Orcs were a problem for both, and their combined strength kept Orcs from overrunning the Vale of Anduin (a similar give and take alliance existed with the Men of Dale in the late 3rd Age). Their troubles with elves - mostly Sindar from Doriath such as Celeborn and Oropher - stemmed from the murder of Thingol and sack of Doriath by Dwarves of Nogrod. These Dwarves were wiped out by Beren and the breaking of the Ered Luin, but some elves remained mistrustful of Dwarves. (ref: various sources - the Silm.; Unfinished Tales, 'The History of Galadriel and Celeborn'; The Peoples of Middle-Earth, 'Of Dwarves and Men').
Amroth's story is told in Unfinished Tales, 'The History of Galadriel and Celeborn', not to mention the Lay of Nimrodel sung by Legolas in LOTR.
Finally, in response to your post-script, which I quote here: "By the way, the fact that any Tolkien fan who isn’t an established and respected artist feels s/he has the jurisdiction to write or re-write any aspect of his mythology is frightening and not just a little revolting".
I agree entirely that no one - established or amateur - should attempt to re-write Tolkien's myths. However, Tolkien left much room within his mythology for our imagination to fill. This, I think, is difficult to see if you have not read The Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales. Tolkien himself hoped other writers would continue his mythology. As he wrote in Letter #131, "...I had in mind to make a body of more or less connected legend... . ...I would draw some of the great tales in fullness, and leave many only placed in the scheme, and sketched. The cycles should be linked to a majestic whole, and yet leave scope for other minds and hands, wielding paint and music and drama." (I should note that this is extremely encapsulated, due to length, but I hope I give the sense correctly. This letter appears in the Silm., for those who do not have The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien. The paragraph ends with the one-word sentence, "Absurd." In the context of the full paragraph, however, he is referring to the grand scale of his intentions, not to the idea that others might continue his work.)
Though much fan fiction is terrible, some writers research their work quite thoroughly, and better examples of such fiction often throw new light on Tolkien's world. Connections are made between the various texts, sometimes turning up a link not before seen. I have learned a great deal from my obsessive desire to document my fiction, as well as from reading others' fiction. Much of Tolkien's work is very much a sketch, yet it is a sketch that fits together beautifully. It is not my intent to change any part of that sketch (though at times one must choose between contradictory texts) - but rather to illustrate parts that are faint.
"Unless it’s for his/her own private enjoyment, of course. But if s/he’s getting money or any sort of favorable attention for it, that’s as despicable as a gold-hungry dwarf."
I do not make money from this (indeed, were it not for my interest in fan fiction, I would probably not have invested several hundred dollars in acquiring the History of Middle Earth). Nor do I hope for favorable attention in the sense of 'fame' - I do want people to enjoy my writing and submit it to web archives to hear feedback - both negative and positive. However, to me, the process of writing and researching is far more rewarding than 'recognition'.
erunyauve
-- posted by erunyauve
» isengar - The Moral State of Dwarves and the Artist's Suffering
In response to message posted by erunyauve:Thank you, erunyauve, for being receptive and considerate in your response to my commentary. And for actually answering my questions. I appreciate the effort. With the Dwarves, you do a good job at making them appear benign but your focus reveals a predilection that, unfortunately, purposely refuses a look at the whole picture. I give you that the Dwarves have their good qualities and these are worthy of recognition : they are not a bad race. Otherwise I would’ve been incapable of finishing _The Hobbit_. For example, Thorin Oakenshileld is certainly an appealing character but we all understand that he dies in the end because he foolishly and unquestioningly believes in cultural ideas and follows cultural rites that are, in most cases, harmful and dangerously hindsighted and which the race of Dwarves (or at least the Longbeard Dwarves) propagate and demand adherence to.
I believe the flipside to all this is Gimli. In Gimli we find most of Dwarven thought and culture at its best, but most importantly we learn that Gimli is an exception among his people for being courageous enough to challenge the predominant view of the Dwarves on life and other peoples, particularly when it comes to the Elves. Otherwise Gimli would’ve never become the Elf-friend he became renown for. Clearly, the critical moment when Gimli makes this significant change is when he meets Galadriel. Having been told by his people that these woods are under the evil dominion of an Elf-witch, Gimli confronts, instead, an ancient Elf queen who is as intelligent, wise and caring as she is beautiful, sensual and powerful, and who’s full of the radiant life of Aman. He enters Lothlorien with a bunch of bologna in his head but is young and still clear-headed enough that when he’s confronted with reality, he recognizes it for what it is. And we should do the same with the Dwarves : they are, in the end, just human, for better or for worse.
Nonetheless, I will insist that, unlike Elves and Men, they are not a very spiritual people. You say they don’t worship Iluvatar because they are not his Children, since they are Children of Aule. That is true enough. Yet it was Iluvatar who granted them Life. Aule answers to him after all. Only Iluvatar gives Life and without his acceptance the Dwarves couldn’t be. But even so, why don’t they praise Aule then? I haven’t seen any indication that they know he even exists! Let’s face it. Dwarves are alright but I’d hate to be one, or reincarnate as one. That doesn’t by any means, however, make them inferior to any other Race, but only a bit lost perhaps and deluded.
Finally, thanks for seeing my point about respecting an artist’s work. I respect your point of view as a writer of fan fiction, but that is because you appear to be responsible and wary of tampering with what doesn’t belong to you by right. A distinction ought to be made between those like you and those who are looking to use Tolkien’s ready-for-marketing popularity to make a quick buck. I am afraid that Peter Jackson, in my opinion, belongs to the latter, although he is doing it through rightfully legal means. It’s not WHAT Jackson’s doing that I find wrong, it’s the MOTIVES behind WHY he’s doing it that troubles me. But that’s a very sensitive and tedious topic that I can’t elaborate on here.
I will try to be as clear and terse in making my final point on artistic integrity. It is WRONG to use someone else’s intellectual property for personal gain without paying the appropriate royalties due. George Lucas gets a check from every _Star Wars_ novel published and sold. We are all aware of the treachery committed against Tolkien when some American publishers violated copyright laws concerning LOTR (or rather, how they used the lack of an American copyright registration of LOTR to their unfair advantage, which is just as insidious). Anyone who makes money or gains substantial popular recognition from someone else’s intellectual property, should be made to pay until that property becomes open to the public domain. (I am obviously not concerned here with the recent and equally detestable film adaptations of Shakespeare’s plays, with the exclusion of the _Hamlet_ films, one starring Mel Gibson and another starring Ethan Hawke in the lead role, the former which I felt was rather good and the latter which I felt was bearable.)
However, if you produce your own artistic work that somehow reflects on or criticizes another’s intellectual property, that is a different story. In that case you are only using the original piece as a trampoline from which your own ideas can spring. If you are criticizing, you can be as overt as you like—that is a personal artistic decision. However, if you are drawing FROM the original piece, you have to be more surreptitious (as George Lucas, who still often comes severely close to revealing his sources).
And you are certainly welcome to adapt Tolkien’s novel and other written works to other artistic mediums like poetry, painting, drama, music, radio, TV, comics, children’s books or film. But if you do, do it because you love it and your instincts call out to you that you HAVE to make it and be responsible of what you end up producing. Don’t do it simply for personal gain or be lazy with it, because it will stick out like a sore thumb and while it might bring you short-lived success, it won’t bring you any respect, which is more valuable. I had a short correspondence with a nice young lady who loves drama and has been trying to make a play out of _The Hobbit_. That speaks differently to me than what I feel is the true motives of most fan fiction writers, and I commend her and support her for it. Best of all, I respect her.
And that is all. We should all recognize this difference and be courageous to speak out when we know someone does an artist like Tolkien wrong.
-- posted by isengar
» The_Limper - Dwarves, their history, and such
Some thoughts on dwarves and their history.Note, most of this is my thoughts based on ideas presented in "them Dwarves..."
1) Regarding when dwarves were awakened, and the origin of the petty dwarves. Durin is different, he had no mate. But what if he wasn't alone? Imagine A small cadre of dwarves awakening in Gundabad, with the knowledge of their other kin given to them by Aule. They set off to find the others, and gather them together. Durin and a few set off to gather from the east and south. The others head west and north. Some are lost to Morgoth; others find the settlements in west. Driven by greed, they choose instead to wake only a few females and claim area for themselves (maybe tainted by evil) Durin, having gathered the dwarves he could, heads west (with his companions, see below), discover the other dwarves, and cast them out. The outcasts become the petty dwarves, and as they lost their mates, they could not reproduce, and gradually diminish. Particularly in an area beginning to teem with evil again. So heinous was their act that the dwarven society completely shunned them, and they are not mentioned again. Another interesting thought is that since the dwarves were of a northern mountainous origin and the elves a southeasterly meadow & forest, their paths may never have crossed.
2) The names of the dwarf clans. As Durin found the clans and woke them up, most packed up and traveled to Gundabad at his request. Some few from each family volunteered to travel with him on his great quest. The Longbeards, firebeards, blacklocks, and braodbeams were all names taken by the houses by their appearance. The stonefoots earned their name from the actions of their group with Durin. They stood against some enemy as if their feet had turned to stone, never giving quarter (similar to Thorin oakenshield in concept), saving Durin. In honor, their entire clan took that appellation. The stiffbeards could be similar. Imagine the company travelling the trackless northern wastes. A bitter storm puts them in peril. A few from this clan volunteer to brave the blizzard and find fire & shelter. They return at the last moment, frozen nearly to the bone, their beards chunked with ice so fierce they could not talk, all bearing wood for a fire. Or something along those lines.
3) On the re-separation of the clans. Early on, food would be an issue. Dwarves do not like to grow it, and in the northern climate of Gundabad, the growing season would be short. At this stage, they may have been primarily hunter/gatherers. I can't imagine a dwarf farmer, but a cattleman, maybe. Some would stay at Gundabad, but Durin would lead them south, towards hills, forest full of hunatbles, and warmer climates. To Kazad-dum. May also have sent some back west too, having seen the movement of the Elves. They may not have crossed paths with the elves until this time. Most likely the death of Durin was the dissolution point of the united dwarf clans. I can imagine the pressure for food and resources separating them. Here's a fun idea - what if the dwarves of Gundabad start pressuring the dwarves of Kazad-dum for more food? The growing season is longer, but dwarves probably do not like being farmers. The thought of having to grow the food so that their cousins in the north can mine and delve may be the insult needed to break up the clans. The hard part is when did Durin die in relationship to the coming of man to Eriador? It is possible that the clans passing through were talked into being farmers for the dwarves, but not treated well, generating the enmity mentioned in the Silmarillion. The firebeards and broadbeams went west, the longbeards stayed. The others? Some went back to the far east, but maybe some came from the SouthEast as well.
4) On the granting of rings of power. Much of what went on in the east and south is unremarked. But looking at a time frame for the second and third ages, Sauron seems to have devoted nearly as much time on the east as on the west. The four dwarf houses may have been busy gathering human allies. The rings may have been an attempt to buy their allegiance. Of the two houses in Ered Luin, they suffered greatly in both the war on Doriath and the destruction of Beleriand. Two rings may have gone to them, but I doubt it. They were diminished even at the beginning of the second age. More likely that 1 went to them (who were by now probably a much-intermingled group) and 2 went to the longbeards, as they had expanded across the misty mountains and iron hills.
5) On the gathering of the rings. Here is my suggestion. Dragons consumed four. If I stick with my assertion that one of the groups went southeast, then dragons may have taken that one. There was mention somewhere of one of the human armies in the service of Mordor carrying a banner with a dragon on it. That, to me, implies dragons to the south as well as on the withered heath. Two of them probably from the east were lost too, though how dragons got so far east I cannot quite figure out. The last one may have been one of the two given to the longbeards, and lost as the dragons attacked into the strongholds in the grey mountains. But that also leads to the possibility that the rings in the east were also lost to the dragons of the withered heath. What if Sauron, being a master manipulator, tricked an eastern dwarf lord or two into trying to slay dragons and raid the heath? Lust for gold hoarded by the dragons, the power and prestige of defeating an enemy their cousins the longbeards hid from, or any personal grudges between groups could have been that fuel.
6) Three rings were recovered. The first may have been recovered early, during the war of the elves & Sauron. Sauron pressed his attack as far as Lindon, and the elves were only saved by the appearance of the Numenorean ships. What if he had besieged the dwarf cities also? These dwarves were known to the elves, and (despite what happened at Doriath) certainly not enemies. Yet there is no mention of them aiding the elves. Perhaps they had their own concerns. It is possible the ring was lost to the attackers. Perhaps taken by a group of trolls? Thorin's was a second. The third could then come from one of the houses of the east, and account for much of Sauron's interest and time spent there.
7) An interesting side note. How did the Balrog get into Moria? If we assume the dwarves built it in the first age, then it could not have fled there when Morgoth's army was destroyed. That means it was either there when Morgoth was first chained, and refused his summons when he returned with the silmarils, or he somehow snuck in and went into hiding after the destruction of Beleriand. Can you imagine a being of smoke and fire sneaking anywhere? Second, were not the elves of Lorien the same group (more or less) who had to deal with Gothmog, lord of the balrogs, in Gondolin? I can see why they forbade dwarven entry into Lorien after they woke up the balrog.
8) Am I missing something, or do most orcs seem to be a northerly species? There is no mention of them in the south. The badness from the south seems to be men. Orcs must have been persecuting dwarves for ages to generate such hatred. If orcs were a hereditary enemy, then the decision to destroy them leading to the dwarf/orc war would be sufficient to bring the dwarf houses from all over together. That is the only way to reconcile the far-flung eastern houses sending troops to that war.
Again, these are only extrapolations on ideas peresented by far more learned scholars than myself. Indeed, I didn't even have the resources at my desk to insure proper spellings. But yet, despite this, I welcome constructive commentary.
-- posted by The_Limper
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