When is a movie not just a movie?
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- ArborLady
- Michael_Martinez
- Inderjit
- Laitoste
- palandiliar
- palandiliar
- c1thorkel
- Cambece
- Laurelin70
- lawnboy101
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» ArborLady - I just don't see it....
In response to message posted by Corinthinean:I first read the trilogy back in high school and really looked forward to the 12/01 release of the movie.
I was extremely surprised when talking to a couple of friends who said they had heard that Tolkien was such a racist, they wouldn't read the book or see the film.
I fully missed this but since I did read it quite a time ago, I re-read the book and saw the movie for a second time - and still I don't see it.
Maybe I am not that "deep" of a person, maybe I just enjoy reading for the story and don't consider the "bigger picture"...but maybe the racism issue is a non-issue, (Perhaps useful as an excuse not to read the work or see the movie and somehow be thought unintellectual? Just asking.)
Whatever the case, I still enjoyed both the movie and the books. After all the word "fantasy" figures into both - the word reality is absent.
By the way Corinthinean, Orlando Bloom was made for the role of Legolas.
Legolas, followed closely by Aragorn were my favorite characters lo' those (several) years ago and they remain so today. And since elves are so much older than mere humans, I don't feel bad about enjoying Mr. Bloom's - let's say - abilities. He gave his characterization all the right nuances and I think Orlando is on his way to becoming a very accomplished as well as popular young actor.
-- posted by ArborLady
» Michael_Martinez - Tolkien hated racism
In response to message posted by ArborLady:He denounced racism. Furthermore, Tolkien puts plenty of dark-skinned people among the good guys, and plenty of fair-skinned people (including most of the Numenoreans) among the bad guys, and he puts the "good" characters in the book into conflict. The Rohirrim, for example, are portrayed as heroic, but they are also faulted with behaving evilly toward Ghan-Buri-Ghan's people.
The nonsense about racism or black-versus-white in the book will probably never die down. As soon as one person accepts that the book simply isn't like that, another person comes out of the woodwork and starts spouting the nonsense all over again. We just have to keep educating people, and accept that some will never see what is really there.
There were also, in the movie, fair-skinned Orcs -- they weren't all just dark-skinned. The racial issues in New Zealand are different from those encountered in the United States, and the whole racism boondoggle is largely an American mistake.
-- posted by Michael_Martinez
» Laitoste - wow
I feel so enlightened! haha.
I'm glad this old discussion came back up, because I hadn't found it before. I agree with all y'all about why Tolkien wasn't a racist--what is it with everyone trying to find something horribly wrong with every international phenominon(sp?)? Gosh, everyone's so dang picky. I've only read Tolkien like 20 times in the past few years, and am still somewhat of a 'novice', but I still think his writings and the movies are the best ever. Everyone needs to lighten up a little!
-- posted by Laitoste
» palandiliar - Re: Re: wow
In response to message posted by wyvenspur:Greetings,
Thanks for stopping by. I'm the new topic editor, palandiliar-zappatiste. Douglas for short. I'm very interested in your survey could you provide a link to it in a message? Is it a Suite101 poll?
Cheers,
palandiliar
-- posted by palandiliar
» palandiliar - Re: wow
In response to message posted by Laitoste:Greetings,Laitoste,
First, thanks for stopping by and posting. I'm the new topic editor, Palandiliar.
I couldn't agree with you more about people 'lightening up' already about Tolkien's writings. He was a marvelously inventive and creative writer, there is no doubt about that. He had his own 'personal agendas' as they say, but literature and art always surpass the artist's original intentions and experiences. That is what makes art 'ART' - the fact that everyone who experiences the artistic event comes away with a universal message which each can apply to their own understanding of life.
Was Tolkien a racist? It doesn't truly matter as there is no overt message of racial superiority in any of his writings. Black and white are not smply racial references. They are symbols referring to good and evil, life and death, positive, negative, Ying and Yang, etc, etc. which have been used by artists for all of recorded time and will undoubted continue to be the essential symbols in every artist's tool box.
Stop by again, real soon. Are you a subscriber to the topics/discussions here at Tolkien & M-E?
Cheers,
Palandiliar
-- posted by palandiliar
» c1thorkel - Re: Tolkien hated racism
In response to message posted by Michael_Martinez:Here we go again... Sigh. Tolkien has been vastly abused by a great many of his "fans." Poor fellow, they will not let him be himself, will not let him be a human being. JRRT has been hijacked, kidnapped, forced into a costume not his own! He has become a "sub-creating" divinity, and his Middle-earth corpus has become the sacred text of a wild (sometimes vicious) cult that demands perfection from its god. Is Tolkien racist? "No, No, NO!" the reactive chorus echoes from the hills. Few of these ardent Tolkien worshippers bother to read far into the Tolkien literature to support their brassy-toned assertions, and those who do, as MM has done, often fail to report any quotes that might be supportive of conclusions outside the cant of this narrow creed - too bad.
I am a Tolkien admirer, not a worshipper, I am interested in Tolkien the man, not Tolkien the god, I am interested in why he wrote, and how he wrote, and how his times and culture shaped his work. I am further interested in how our own, current times and attitudes have altered the way(s) in which we "moderns" now interpret Tolkien. I am not interested in concealing aspects of his personality, his belief system, his personal history that might not conform to the myth that has grown up around the man since 1965.
So, is Tolkien "racist?"
This is a very hot potato indeed, and the topic is usually approached circuitously and with a cautionary diffidence so as not to provoke the confusing brays of the self-appointed Guardians of Middle-earth Rectitude! But I'll forge on, straight ahead, taking a stab at it, nonetheless, because this is a VERY important issue intrinsically, and it affords those truly interested in understanding the "real" Tolkien an exceptionally direct avenue toward the goal of appreciating Tolkien as a fellow human being: YES -- Tolkien was racist. So what? Aren't we all? Racism is so pervasive, so subtle, and comes in so many different intensities and flavors that I sincerely doubt there is a thinking human on this planet who is entirely free of it. Why then should we expect Tolkien to be such a freak that he himself, alone among us, should escape the tarring brush of racism?
For me the valid question here is not the simple issue of "whether JRRT is racist," (he was) but, in what ways is he racist, how does his racism affect his writing, to what extent was he conscious of this "racism," what were its sources, and how do our current attitudes differ (if they do!) from those that surface in his writings? I would like in this endeavor to keep ancillary remarks to a minimum, and not introduce appeals to the "movie" versions of LotR, or even dredge up (and then misuse) such examples as the movie "Zulu" -- which was (still is!) met with a chorus of dismay in the 1960s and prompted some major, anachronistic "de-racisms" to be introduced in the sequel "Zulu Dawn."
Here, we need to do something wonderfully clever, something outlandishly academic and intellectual, something that seems to run counter to our present, post Reagan, conservative times -- we need to define our terms!
I imagine that the failure to properly establish working definitions is the root cause for most of the misunderstandings, injured feelings, and outraged defenses and attacks associated with this topic. "Racism," "racist," what do they mean?! Does the current, "popular" conception of racism really square with the 1890 - 1960 understanding that was available to Tolkien? Are there multiple meanings, or shades of "racism" -- even if we confine ourselves to a consideration of just our own, modern appreciation of this phenomenon? I suspect that MM's 2003 defining limits for "racism" may be significantly different from my own, and that the apparent consensus among Tolkien "defenders" as to what is "racist," is based on a very skewed, and exclusionary interpretation of racism. Here it would have been very helpful had MM defined his terms so that his readers could better judge the efficacy of his arguments (or lack of such).
I'll pause here, to allow others to present their definitions, before I mount my own efforts in this regard, and then, in some third "paper" I'll detail just how my definition of racism fits into this discussion by re-examining the published works of Tolkien, and the biographical materials available.
-- posted by c1thorkel
» Cambece - Re: The whole world should stop being paranoid! Cambece
In response to message posted by Corinthinean:Ok.. Hold on.. I have to write something here.
There are plenty of "Bad" white guys. It lord of the rings is a parity of real life. Why aren't the white guys pissed off?
Saramen (sp) would apparently sell his mom for the right price.
Worm Tongue would do just about anything to get laid.
The Steward of Gondar is just Mental and Mean.
Isn’t Golum white? Now there is someone everyone wants to be like.
Most important who fucking cares.. It’s a movie…
-- posted by Cambece
» Laurelin70 - "racism" definition
Racism = a "race" (i.e. a group of human beings with similar features and culture characteristics and a common history) thinking to be better than others and consequently to have the right to impose its own culture on other races. Also, thinking that the Humans are divided into two types: the "lords" ("Herrenvolk" in German, "People of Lords") and the "sub-humans", and that these last can be let survive only to serve to the Lords and their purposes.It is _not_ racism to think that the "races" are differents or that they are at a different stadium of development (that is "ethnocentrism"). It is _not_ racism to fear other "races" (that is "xaenophobia" or "isolationism").
Do we have examples of the first type of "racism" in ME? It comes to my mind only the behaviour of the Rohirrim toward the Woses. Yes, the Haradrim and Easterling are ever depicted as "cruel" or "evil", but there is the reflection of Sam about the fallen Southron that put some doubts into these definitions. Anyway, they are never depicted as "inferior", and Aragorn, after the victory, doesn't impose his culture and power upon them. Faramir express even better this position: he wants that Minas Tirith be "not a mistress of many slaves, nay, not even a kind mistress of willing slaves".
Hobbits, but also Elves and Dwarves, are examples of "ethnocentrism" o "isolationism", but not of "racism".
-- posted by Laurelin70
» lawnboy101 - Re: Re: Tolkien hated racism
In response to Re: Tolkien hated racism posted by c1thorkel:I do not accept that I am a racist, therefore, I was able to start ignoring your comments midway thru the fourth paragraph. I did do you the courtesy of reading the whole thing but it did not convince me to grant your premise. Nice use of vocabulary though.
-- posted by lawnboy101
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