Exploring Tolkien's Fourth Age
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- Heorrenda
- Michael_Martinez
- Neithan
- Hernalt
- Michael_Martinez
- isengar
- Goffer
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» Heorrenda - Exploring Tolkien's Fourth Age
I have always been fascinated with the 4th Age. In a way it represents a 'blank page' upon which our imaginations can be set loose. It is also extremely 'fertile ground' for would-be writers and role-players alike. We know little about it, other than scant pieces of information which Tolkien has left scattered about; some names, some dates, and a rough idea of some political boundaries. But what a history behind it we have!I find the reign of Eldarion to be the great mystery, and was quite surprised to read 'The New Shadow'. I always thought that without a 'universal evil' his reign would be a peaceful one, but eventually wrought with domestic squabbles; such as anti-Elf sentiment, wars in the East, market economies, etc. The idea of an evil cult plotting the overthrow of the King is an interesting storyline, despite Tolkien's aversions.
I was curious as to the nature of the 'old evil'. I like the idea that it was a wight, or some other former servant of Sauron, rather than the 'fading Elves' theory. I see the remaining Elves as staying true and noble, albeit fewer in number and more hidden. I DO subscribe to the theory that Cirdan stayed behind until the last voyage, however, because I always pictured the Havens, Rivendell, and Greenwood forming an East-West 'alliance' under the 3 Sindarian Elven-Kings Celeborn, Thranduil, and Cirdan. (Elven-things do seem to come in 3's.)
Nevertheless, Eldarion would have quite a 'royal family' around him. Great-grandfather Celeborn, uncles Elladan & Elrohir, and his apparent sisters.
I do have some questions:
1) Approximately how long would Eldarion's lifespan be? I assume he wouldn't have the choice to be immortal, since Arwen chose to be mortal. (I calculate him to be 1.5% Maiar, 5.5% Noldor, 7% Vanyar, 26.5% Sindar, 9.5% Man, and, of course, 50% Dunedain.)
2) Durin VII is cited as 'the Last'. How do you suppose this is documented as fact? Does something happen to the Dwarves, or is there some edict drawn up from 7 being a holy number of Dwarves?
3) Do the Blue Wizards remain in Middle-Earth? If so, could one or both of them be responsible for the growing cult? I believe Tolkien mentioned that they initiated 'cults' in the East.
Anyway, I was quite fascinated by the article. Thanks.
-- posted by Heorrenda
» Michael_Martinez - Re: Exploring Tolkien's Fourth Age
Question 1: How long would Eldarion's life be?Well, he died about 100 years after Aragorn, and he could not have been born sooner than the year 3020 of the Third Age (about 1 year before the Fourth Age began). Aragorn lived to be 210 years old (according to the Second Edition of THE LORD OF THE RINGS) and he ruled for 120 years. So, if Eldarion did not live longer than his father, he had to be born no earlier than Fourth Age 11.
Basically, he lived at most 221 years, but may have lived less than that, and perhaps had a lifespan of only 200 years or so. But that would, of course, still be a very long time.
Question 2: How is Durin VII documented as the "last" to bear that name?
That's a good question. Tolkien actually hints in a couple of places that some OTHER records besides the Red Book of Westmarch survived, and presumably these would be from a more recent period (but still probably from the Fourth Age). But it may be there was some prophecy among the Dwarves that the seventh Durin would be the last to bear that name.
Question 3: What became of the Blue Wizards?
Some people have begun to accept as "canon" that the Blue Wizards actually appeared in Middle-earth during the Second Age, and that they failed in their missions, or that they were active against Sauron in the Third Age and helped restrain his might by fomenting rebellions in the east. These ideas come from Tolkien himself, from material published in The Peoples of Middle-earth.
My own feeling is that the Blue Wizards must remain a mystery. The idea they could have been sent to Middle-earth in the Second Age seems unlikely to me, and I believe Tolkien would have rejected the idea eventually.
But one should remember that the essays published in Unfinished Tales in the section titled "The Istari" are also not Tolkien's final thoughts (and they contradict each other in some places). So it's not sufficient to say they probably failed of their missions. Tolkien says in one essay that even Radagast failed, but in The Lord of the Rings Radagast does assist in preparing for the final assault by helping Gandalf. It seems a little harsh to suggest that he actually failed, and Tolkien seems to have reneged on the idea.
Let us suppose, therefore, that the final story would have become something like this: five Istari came to Middle-earth in the Third Age, and that of these Saruman fell away into evil while Radagast and the Blue Wizards only partially fulfilled their missions, failing to bring Men or Elves to action in the end.
Tolkien's fear that the Blue Wizards may have founded cults of magic was expressed in a letter in 1958. He did not begin working on The New Shadow until several years later. The idea that the Blue Wizards may have arrived earlier than the others was developed late in Tolkien's life, after he had abandoned work on The New Shadow. This idea emerged when Tolkien was beginning to alter many of Middle-earth's facts, and that is why I'm reluctant to endorse it whole-heartedly, although it contradicts nothing. Much of this material was in fact inconsistent with the published works, and it may be that Tolkien was envisioning all the changes collectively, though they occurred over a period of several years (say, from 1968 through 1972).
In the end, I think Radagast must eventually have returned to the Uttermost West, and probably also the Blue Wizards. They need not be a source of new evil and, in fact, if either of them (or both) were to have been a source of new evil, then they would have restored an element of the fantastic to Middle-earth which supposedly died with Sauron.
-- posted by Michael_Martinez
» Neithan - Eldar, short comment
in F.A. 16 Sam tells Rosie something like "those who wished to sail has done so, but some remain and there will be elves for many a year yet to come", quote shortened and written from memory. So there would be eldar in Middle-Earth still.Have to go to work, already delayed ½ an hour.
NT
-- posted by Neithan
» Hernalt - ...
In a manner of descending symmetry, an Istari (ideally one) going bad would nicely complement the reduction of evil Presense in Middle-earth. It began with a 120% Valar, was continued by a 100% Maiar, and could have been closed by an Istari ("low-fat" 80% Maiar). Since his greatest agenda was Man's coming to grips with Illuvatar's Gift, the actual *expanse* and breadth of Evil was a backdrop. The best evil is the most concentrated and capable, but a corrupted Istari could have pulled the strings of relevance I'd say nearly as tightly as Sauron. Interesting possibilities. Definately a richer vein than the de$perate $earch in today'$ $equel formulae$. But alas - he had said all he needed to about the Gift, since Aragorn had brought the Willingness full-circle.My other question is how close he would have been shaving his mythology to archeologic biblical record. Off the top of my head, some sites have been dated to 4500 BC. That's cutting it pretty close, I think, to the 6k figure of Middle-earth's antiquity. In other words, 1500 years to live down all that jazz and start out with some new legends like floods, pillars of fire, salt-people and fire in the sky. Is there any jottings that illuminate how he might have dovetailed his mythos with that of the bible?
-- posted by Hernalt
» Michael_Martinez - Middle-earth and the Bible
As far as I know, Tolkien did not try to connect his mythologies with the Bible. But since their events all occur in the distant north, there really isn't supposed to be any overlap. Aragorn's kingdom would -- if transposed to real geography -- have at least rested on the northern shores of the Mediterranean Sea, but by the end of the Fourth Age it could have receded northward, so as not to be a part of Biblical events.-- posted by Michael_Martinez
» isengar - The cycles of the old evil
Like it or not the “old evil” of _The New Shadow_ is a concentrated one and it has a head, perhaps not as marvellous and powerful as Sauron, but no less dangerous and world-threatening. Even today, although it’s becoming harder to tell in our age of terrorism, evil does its most potent work when it has a leader. Anything else is petty squabbling that results in a lot of life loss. Even without Sauron there is plenty of evil in Middle-earth to do damagae : Orcs, Barrow-wights, Trolls, etc. but these are not concentrated or managed collectively towards a greater purpose. It takes a leader and Time for a formidable threat to be accomplished. The War of the Ring was thousands of years in the making. Finally there was enough degeneration and irresponsibility on the part of many, particularly the mighty (Gondor) and wise (White Council), for this evil to reach its critical point. We are in a similar time today. 9/11 didn’t come out of the blue. U.S. embassies were being bombed during Clinton’s presidency and nobody fussed. Sinde the 60’s things have been getting progressively out of control. The head of this evil may not be easy to detect; it may be well-hidden like Sauron was in Dol Guldur for a long while. But I feel we won’t have to wait much longer for the head to be revealed and he will be mortal but as terrible as Hitler.What I find disturbing in _The New Shadow_ is how quickly the evil returns. It’s been barely more than 200 years since the War of the Ring! But then again, it’s been barely 50 years since WWII, so perhaps there’s a trend in our degeneration, a cycle as it were that’s growing shorter and shorter or spinning faster and faster… not very comforting. Nonetheless, _The New Shadow_ marks a growth in Tolkien as a writer as well as a responsible dreamer, becoming more and more attuned to his concerns as a faithful Christian, a proud European and a dedicated scholar. It’s too bad he didn’t have the time to work the bugs out. In the end, my point is that the old evil stirring in _The New Shadow_ does have a head figure, perhaps even connected to or, at least, knowledgeable of Sauron and his ways, but he is mortal. He may be of Númenorean descent, since there were plenty of bad Númenorean lords who became kings in the lands east of Middle-earth, but he is still mortal. The cult may be the clue, as so it seems Tolkien was heading, because a cult suggests a concentration of people to do something, in this case evil or evil-like actions.
_The New Shadow_ would have to uncover this head, who he was, where he was from, how he got to be so powerful, what his intentions were and somehow muster the strength to defeat him. It seems that Tolkien was at a loss of ideas because he was too perturbed by it all to work out the answers to these questions. There’s a strain of disillusion in _The New Shadow_ concerning Men because we seem to grow tired of peace, which is a very sad and sick thing. Tolkien sets out to warn us that if we grow lax in tending the garden of life, the weeds of evil will sprout and ruin the crops. Fighting evil doesn’t end with defeating Sauron, it’s a constant everyday duty.
Once again in our own world we have grown lax, and we’ll have much to pay and lose before we beat down the weeds that are threatening our lives. After LOTR Tolkien couldn’t possibly bear _The New Shadow_ to fruition . The struggle would’ve been too much for the old man : the bitter truth of realizing that men don’t really enjoy peace and too easily grow lax in warding off evil would’ve found its way into _The New Shadow_, and I’m sure that would’ve ruined what was beautiful to him about Middle-earth. So it was better for the sake of his soul to leave well enough alone. Of what Tolkien managed to write in _The New Shadow_, the darkness he begins to take us into at its very end is so scary, I’m not sure even I’m prepared for it.
-- posted by isengar
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