Frodo's Temptation (part two)
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- mggraves
- elendil112
- palandiliar
- mggraves
- SSJPabs
- LeftyScaevola
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» mggraves - last two articles
I thought your last two articles were great. It bothers me also that people discount the effort of Frodo. But I think it would be impossible for anyone to succeed even the Istari without the help of Iluvatar. Iluvatar gives the Ainur three themes and they sing they world into existence sort of like a prophecy. Iluvatar cannot intervene directly into the world once it is made to help. But his will is maifest already. Even discordant themes introduced by Melkor are incorporated into Iluatar's theme. Two of those could be: Sauron tries to will the ring to be found but it is found by Bilbo (Iluvatar's will) and Frodo finally surrenders to the ring ( Sauron's will) but because with the insight of Gandalf earlier he has had pity for and spared Gollum who then accidentally falls into Mt. Doom (Iluvatar's will). This stuff was in the song of existence. It was never possible for Frodo or even the greatest of the elves (look what a mess Feanor made) to resist the evil of the ring. Only the help of the Iluvatar makes it possible to defeat such great evil and powerful magic.Marilyn (Psychology and Fiction)
-- posted by mggraves
» elendil112 - Re: last two articles
In response to message posted by mggraves:
it may not be through Illuvatar's(God) intervention that Sauron could be destroyed. Melkor, once the greatest of the Valar could not withstand the might of the Valar. as a result, he was thrown into the Timeless Void.Also, Sauron, he was also of the same rank as the Istari. their rank is the Maia, lesser Ainur, the Istari could easily overthrow Sauron in Barad-dur, but they were forbidden by the Valar to use their full strength.
-- posted by elendil112
» palandiliar - Re: Re: last two articles
In response to message posted by elendil112:Mae Govannen,
First, thanks for reading and taking time to comment.
mggraves has entered into the shadow world of Middle-earthen theology. More power to you.
I tend to think, along with elendil112, that Iluvatar was a 'hands off' creator. The music was composed before the actual manifestation of Arda by the works of the Ainu, that is true, and no one can know the whole of Iluvatar's plan, not even Manwe. However, I tend to shy away from the notion that Frodo's actions (or any being's actions) were pre-ordained or predetermined. If the hero (or the villain) has no choice but to undertake the quest and each step of the way is choreographed to the music, as it were, then the role of the hero is an empty one. It would require no special quality to complete the quest if each heroic 'player' were simply pieces without will or self-determination.
Speaking from within the 'sub-creation',I do feel that certain elements of the situation were influenced by the Ainu. (e.g. Bilbo's finding of the Ring in Gollum's cave.) However, I feel that Bilbo could have acted quite differently and still have remained in character. He could have slain Gollum out of fear, for example, thus changing the dramatis personna of the entire saga significantly and yet not have violated the rules of the sub-creation. Bilbo's personal history and perhaps his personna would have changed as a result of such an act, but the sub-creation would not have been undermined. The story of the Ring would have played out much differently, of course.
FWIW,
Palandiliar
-- posted by palandiliar
» mggraves - Frodo's luck
Both the comments posted after mine are really interesting but I was not talking about whether Gandalf could defeat Sauron or if Frodo has choices (which I think he does, as does everybody else) but only about the two instances of luck that occur: Bilbo finding the ring and Gollum falling backwards. Maybe it is just luck or maybe somebody loaded the dice a bit. JRRT was after all a devout Catholic. Marilyn-- posted by mggraves
» LeftyScaevola - Hobbits and the Ring
I believe that the reason hoobits had extra resistance to the ring was that the ring best path to control and corruption was through desire for power. Most hobbits do not desire power, most of the time they desire some nice food."
Ring: Put me on Bilbo and I will make you great.
Bilbo: What's for Lunch.
Ring: I will make the biggest hobbit in Hobbiton.
Bilbo: It been almost 2 hours since evlensies and I am hungry.
Ring: I will make you mayor of the shire.
Bilbo: I fancy a nice BLT sandwich right now.
Ring: I will make you Thain.
Bilbo: UUmmm, Blt with extra crispy bacon...
Ring:..You will be the Took...
Bilbo: ...firm but not mealy tomato...
Ring: ...Master of the great smials....
Bilbo: ...crunchey iceberg lettuce...
Ring: ...and Master of buckland, that too...
Biblo: ...now do I want whole wheat toast or sourdough toast?...
Ring: ...IIRC correctly, you prefer whole wheat, back on topic, you will be master of Brandy hall...
Bilbo:..My mother used to make a special mayonaise...
Ring: ..A KING! I will make you King of Arthedain, how about that?
Bilbo: ..It was very tangy, with vinegar and lemon and taragon....
Ring: ...ARRRGH! Arnor, all Arnor will be yours!
Bilbo: ..I feel like extra bacon on it today
Ring: ....I do not #$$%^%#%^^ make sandwhiches you know, I dominate and conquer! I am a ring of metal for Morgoth's sake! I can not even pick up the a knife to spread mayonaise. Come on now let's join Sauron and conquer the world. You will be Viceroy of all Eriador!
Bilbo: Well then! if you are not going to make me my sandwich, it is back in the pocket for you until tea time, then we will see if you are any use.
-- posted by LeftyScaevola
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