Cloning the World

Top 12. Sep 6, 2002 10:59 AM

» FernWithy - Re: Re: Let the chips fall where they may.

In response to message posted by Dedalus47:

Or perhaps better yet, realize that the concepts of "we" and "the universe" are not entirely antithetical!

Exactly. There are patterns in the universe and in nature, and we are part of them.

On the educational issue, the straight line idea is, to my mind, a natural part of being human. It's the fastest and most effective way to get information from one generation to the next, which is how our weak little species manages to survive. It's also how we solve problems, which is not against nature--problem-solving is part of our role in the universe. And you're right... I used the phrase "enforced empathy" above, and now that you point out the artificiality of deliberately "spontaneous" classrooms, I think I see how that fits in. The problem with the contemporary theory is that it is imposing its own rigid idea of what nature is (the idea of Rousseau, mainly, in which the child is perfectly complete and is only ruined by the society around it, which is certainly not how our species happens to work; we're social creatures, like most other primates), rather than trusting actual nature.

For the record, my position on education is that I want to have a lot of humanities, and use humanities disciplines as the basis of education (as they were in Classical education). I disapprove of learning reading by rote, though I guess it's the only way to do it in a school setting; ultimately, I think that reading, like dressing oneself and various other personal hygeine habits, is a skill that should be learned at home, which a child should have acquired before school. But some things do need to be learned by rote, not only because that's really the only way to do it, but because rote learning has its place and the mind needs to be trained to it as much as to creative thinking.

That said, I think that the most important thing for a liberal education to teach is genuine critical thinking. This is not, "Here's why you should think the paper is wrong and your teacher is right." I think the most frightening thing I ever heard was a kid whose rare teacher had assigned some actual critical thinking; I'd given him a book of several different perspectives on a book, and he looked at me and implored me to tell him which one he was supposed to think was right, I think because he'd become so accustomed to other teachers telling him the "right" way to look at every issue. It's a question of examining issues, seeing what is involved, and making informed choices based on that knowledge. It's difficult to do that without the knowledge base which must often be learned by rote in younger grades, but by the time a kid is in fifth or sixth grade, certainly he or she is capable of taking a text and analyzing it to see what it means.

In this context--see I can pull this back to Attack of the Clones smile --there is a very notable difference between the Younglings and the Clonelings. The whole scene in which Obi-Wan visits Yoda's class is centered around problem-solving and independent thinking. The children are not led to the solution--though I'm convinced Yoda knew it--but allowed to take the information they had and come to conclusions based on it. The Clonelings, on the other hand, are being fed information, and, given that they are genetically modified not to argue, I'd bet that their "tests" would consist only of spitting it back accurately.

Which to my mind loses some of the advantage of using a crafty bounty hunter as the original donor, but hey, that's just me.

-- posted by FernWithy

Top 13. Sep 6, 2002 1:13 PM

» Dedalus47 - Re: Re: Re: Let the chips fall where they may.

In response to message posted by FernWithy:

You even mention Rousseau! Now I am impressed. Although I will admit, I did have a certain fondness for him back in my college days. On the topic of Romanticism, I'm reminded of what John Keats said once in a letter - "If poetry doesn't come as naturally as leaves falling off a tree, it had best not come at all."

And indeed, as you pointed out, since we are all um, rooted, in nature, there is really no way to escape naturalism. I think it was Goethe who said that the Laws of Nature were actually the way Nature went rather than a list of descriptive rules as to how it should go. In other words, if a person jumps up and down and pulls all their hair out in an attempt to rebel against the natural flow, it will be completely unsuccessful, because that's just another way nature is going at that present location! Yet the classical way is to identify one's self as a Newtonian billiard ball being knocked from one end of the table to the other, not realizing that they're the table as well as the ball! So all of civilization - from that point of view - is every bit as natural and spontaneous as morning mist rising off a lake.

I have written extensively about self-consciousness lately, and I will continue to do so in the articles to come. To be sure, I am not suggesting that self consciousness is evil or unnatural, like some sort of alien being that settles in the body. Certainly it comes with the vast complexities of the human mind. But I do feel that it can behave in a way antithetical to all the other goings on that are going on. It seems to me one of the big things to be taught is to be able to use self consciousness without being used by it - to be able to live life minus the haunted, guilty, and fundamentally neurotic commentary that it often puts up. (actually, it seems to me that when some religious traditions talk about losing the ego, what they really mean is the ever-chattering self conscious)

I was at Dragoncon this weekend (and in case anyone cares, yes, I will have a pic up for next article!), and I was there with a couple of friends from an online Buffy group. At some point, I got to talking about the Matrix. Now, one definition of the word "matrix" itself is that it is graph paper laid over cellophane. I found this highly interesting. There's nothing inherently wrong with graph paper, though we all know it is a series of straight lines that isolate one section from the other. But the problem comes when one forgets what they have done ... in other words, when the graph paper is seen not as something imposed on the cellophane for convenience, but is really the way things are. To go back to that metaphor, mistaking the pattern of reference that is knowledge for the innate wisdom that was hopefully the basis for the whole thing. So that is the Matrix, and there doesn't seem to be any part of society - besides maybe some of the arts and little smidges of religion - that aren't ruled over it with whip and chain. Artificiality therefore presents a great problem when it is not recognized as such, and this is the case with both the Empire and AI in that Keanu movie.

All in all, I think it helps to reflect back on what Moyers and Campbell were talking about in The Power of Myth. Moyers asked Campbell whether the hero with a thousand faces could tell us how to change the system so it's not using us, to which Campbell replied it wouldn't do any good to change the system, but rather to live in the system as a human being. Which is exactly what Anakin did in the end of Jedi, and the rest of it took care of itself.

-- posted by Dedalus47

Top 14. Sep 7, 2002 11:17 AM

» metark - Palpatine's Influence

I wanted to ask your opinion on how involved Palpatine is with Anakin's future. Palpatine has certainly been manipulating the senate, the trade and commerce guilds, and even the Jedi. In terms of the orchestration of the need for the clones and the war itself, I don't believe that anything happens, without Palpatine's influence.

As far as Anakin, the Attack of the Clones book talks about Anakin going to see Palpatine as soon as they returned to the capital city at the very beginning. So at the time that Palpatine suggests that Obi-wan be assigned to guard Padme, Palpatine knew they had just returned and would be available. This triggers the events through the rest of the movie.

Did Palpatine know/want Anakin and Padme together in order to separate them later knowing that may help push Anakin toward the dark side?

Could Palpatine have influenced the death of Anakin's mother and the subsequent massacre of the Tuskins? Yoda could feel the "pain, death" that rippled through the force. I have no doubt that Palpatine could feel it as well.

I have also wondered if the dark side of the force, and therefore Palpatine, gains strength from pain and death and through this and that of the clone wars.

In Clones, Palpatine reminds me of the anti-Christ as in the book of Revelations. He makes others believe that he is good and by the time they know the truth, it will be too late. His line about loving democracy and loving the republic is reminiscent of the anti-Christ character in the Left Behind series.

Through most, if not all, of the western religions that have a devil figure, he is said to be influential globally and individually for his own gains. If the character of Palpatine is similar to this devil/anti-Christ, his influence could be in both the union and destruction of Padme and Anakin as well as the Tuskin Raiders attack on Anakin's mother.

Opinions?

-- posted by metark

Top 15. Sep 8, 2002 10:07 AM

» Dedalus47 - Re: Palpatine's Influence

In response to message posted by metark:

Hmm. Interesting comments.

While I do think there is something of an anti-Christ figure in Palpatine, I'm thinking it would be a bit much to say that he somehow orchestrated Shmi's kidnapping and torture on Tatooine as some have suggested. Nor do I believe he purposefully put Anakin and Padme together for that purpose. I think he may have linked her with Obi-Wan precisely for what he said, which triggered that skeptical glance from Yoda - "I realize additional security may be a distraction for you," or something along those lines. I think it was just tweaking her a bit, as well as making him seem really concerned for her safety.

Now, while it is true Palpatine is very good at orchestrating crisis and then exploiting them for his own purposes, such as the invasion of Naboo to get elected Chancellor, or the Clone Wars to secure even more power and authority, it is also true that he is very good at rolling with the punches. He seems to have a knack for going with the situations that pop up that he perhaps didn't foresee. Like taking advantage of Amidala in TPM and telling her to call for a vote of no-confidence in Vallorum, or even getting Count Dooku as his next apprentice after he loses Maul. The count would probably have been a better choice for what he wanted to do anyway.

In line with this, I do think it's right that he felt Anakin's enormous pain over the loss of his mother in the Force. And it is perfectly reasonable that - whether Anakin confides into him about what happened or not - that he will exploit his inability to let go of things. If I were Palpatine, certainly I would go after Padme come Episode Three. And maybe he will even stage to look as if the Jedi had something to do with it, whether directly or more likely inadvertently. So while he may not have created these scenarios, I think he's certainly going to be taking full advantage of them.

-- posted by Dedalus47

Top 16. Sep 8, 2002 7:19 PM

» steverino104 - Re: Re: Palpatine's Influence

In response to message posted by Dedalus47:

Palpatine's suggestion to get Obi-Wan to guard Padme always bugged me too. Why did he specifically request Kenobi? I think he's preparing Anakin to go to the dark side.

In the film when Anakin meets with Palpy he makes it clear that he has been taking guidance from the Chancellor, probably for the last ten years. Palpy must have been planting the seeds that would eventually produce Vader, all the while portraying himself as another much needed father figure.

According to the novelization, when Anakin slays the Tuskens, Yoda senses it while he is probing the dark side. It makes sense that Palpy felt it too, especially since it created enough of a disturbance in the Force to rouse Qui-Gon.

If Shmi's suffering was felt by Anakin, it's possible that Palpy felt it too. Setting Anakin up to be on his own would have created an opportunity to take a big step into the dark side.

Just how far into the future Palpy can see, and just what strings he's pulling remain to be seen. It may just be "rolling with the punches", but I think he has taken a personal interest in Young Skywalker.

Lousy three-year wait.

-- posted by steverino104

Top 17. Sep 8, 2002 8:30 PM

» FernWithy - Re: Re: Re: Palpatine's Influence

In response to message posted by steverino104:

I think that Palpatine was trying to cause trouble between Anakin and Obi-Wan with the Padme issue... he ends up shooting himself in the foot, but that's because, while he understands the more base nature of what he's doing, he doesn't have the first idea about the higher nature. By playing matchmaker for Anakin and Amidala, he ends up engineering his own defeat through their marriage/love/son (I don't think there's any separation among those concepts, ultimately).

The novelization says that Anakin hasn't been in to see Palpatine very often, but that Palpatine has always been the way he seems to be. Now, I don't take the novelization as the be-all, end-all, but in this case, I think that makes sense. Too much interest would have caused a lot of suspicion. But during those times, Anakin would undoubtedly have thought, "Hey, he's Naboo... I can ask him about Padme." And no matter how he couched those questions, Palpatine would have picked up on them. And, just for kicks, what if Padme had said, "Say, Chancellor--you deal with the Jedi from time to time. How is little Ani getting along?" Bells go off. I think at this point that he's not thinking so much of turning Anakin as he is of splitting Anakin from the Jedi Order, just in case that pesky prophecy turns out to be true.

And, to get back to the teaching themes here, I've been in conversations elsewhere that point out the extreme difference in the way Palpatine treats Anakin and the way Obi-Wan does. Anakin is clearly someone who responds to positive reinforcement well--any time someone gives him a vaguely encouraging comment, he lights up like the twin suns. Obi-Wan, afraid that Anakin is suffering from hubris and arrogance, spends a lot of time correcting and reminding him that he must learn his place, etc, etc. Obi-Wan has good reason for this, but he seems not to realize that he's being countered and challenged by Palpatine, who only tells Anakin, "You're wonderful, you're powerful, you know what you're doing, you're competent..." That he does this very cynically is part of what makes him disgusting. He's capitalizing on a very human need that's not being met, not because Obi-Wan is a bad person, but because Obi-Wan is basically a first-time parent, and he's making a fairly common first-time parent mistake.

As to Shmi, I doubt that had anything to do with Palpatine. That was just either bad luck or bad fate. Given that it's SW, I'd guess the latter.

-- posted by FernWithy

Top 18. Sep 10, 2002 6:48 PM

» Dedalus47 - Re: Re: Re: Re: Palpatine's Influence

In response to message posted by FernWithy:

I still would hold off on linking Palpatine to Anakin and Padme, but I do agree about Obi-Wan.

I love the way he scolds him at every possible turn, but is really so protective of him. Like when he and Padme are leaving for Naboo, and he remarks, "I do hope he doesn't do anything foolish." Or when he's on Geonosis, "I do hope nothing's happened to him." He does well fretting, like an overanxious father.

-- posted by Dedalus47

Top 19. Sep 11, 2002 8:04 AM

» metark - Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Palpatine's Influence

In response to message posted by Dedalus47:

I think that sums it up. Obi-wan understands that his roll is the father figure in Anakin's life and of course Anakin says he is like a father to him. But Obi-wan's roll model for a father was often short and formal, yet rebellious to authority. He certainly cared about Obi-wan, as Obi-wan does about Anakin. It just doesn't come through very often to Anakin. The two quotes you noted were both said to others.

Maybe once Palpatine felt the energy of the pain of Anakin's slaughter of the Tuskins, he knew that it would not take to much to push Anakin to the dark side.

I could certainly buy that Palpatine did not specifically want Anakin and Padme to be together but then I would think that Palpatine wanted Obi-wan on the case, maybe sensing that Obi-wan would be able to get to Kamino and to Geonosis. For Palpatine's plan to work, someone has to find out what Dooku has been up to, creating the threat, and find out about the clones, creating the only way out. I suppose if Obi-wan had failed, Palpatine would have set something else in motion.

I know that this is a stretch but I don't think that Palpatine does anything without it serving him. If Padme had been killed, it may have helped him in the senate so saving her does not seem like an important reason for him to want Obi-wan and Anakin to guard her. If not to get Padme and Anakin together, then for Obi-wan to discover the clones, etc.

-- posted by metark

Top 20. Sep 11, 2002 8:43 AM

» Dedalus47 - Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Palpatine's Influence

In response to message posted by metark:

The two quotes you noted were both said to others..

Good point!

I'm confident Palpatine would have set something into motion had Obi-Wan not gone to Kamino. He wouldn't just let that pass, of course. I'm sure he would have miraculously offered them up at a time when the Republic was in no position to refuse them.

-- posted by Dedalus47