Shade trees for small yards

» pfleeg - Replacements for big leaf maples?

Our back yard is about 125' long and 28' wide edged abruptly by a retaining wall about 15 feet above a river bed. There are four mature big leaf maples planted along the length of the yard, providing a beautiful canopy of shade in summer.

I love the shade, but am concerned about the proximity to the house (a couple grow only 12-15 feet from the foundation). We have been told that at the size these are, they begin to die from the inside out.

What would you recommend to replace these, that wouldn't grow nearly so large, yet still provide some shade during the season? We live in NW Oregon, zone 7b-ish/8a-ish.

BTW, if you go to http://groups.msn.com/TaylorFamilyOregon... you can get an idea of what I'm working with.

TIA

-- posted by pfleeg

» Kirk_Johnson - Re: Replacements for big leaf maples?

I took a look at your photos. I live on the southern Oregon coast, so I am familiar with bigleaf maples. They may cause some problems with your foundation.
If you replace them with fast growing large shade trees, you are going to have problems in windstorms because fast growing trees have weak wood. I suggest a grove of smaller growing trees. If you want natives, vine maple (Acer circinatum) is a good choice. What do you think of the small grove of vine maples next to my Japanese inspired pond?

-- posted by Kirk_Johnson

» Marge_Talt - Re: Replacements for big leaf maples?

Hi Laurie, Welcome to Gardening in Shade!

I've also looked at your photos. Since I garden on the other side of the country fom you, Kirk's suggestion for trees would be more relevant than mine tho' there are lots of lovely smaller trees (many that can also offer flowers at different seasons, fruit or interesting bark as well as shade) that I am sure would grow well in your climate.

While I always hate to remove a large, mature tree, if that species is known to create problems, better to deal with them before they happen.

What to plant depends on so many things:

• How you use your yard now;
  
• How you would like to use it if the trees weren't there and you could make some changes to grade within the yard - staying away from the river retaining wall;
  
• How much interest you have in gardening (would ou like to plant some flowering shrubs, perennials, annuals?)
  
• What the orientation of the site is - like which direction is the house - where does the sun hit? That sort of thing.
  
What kind of soil you have; what kind of drainage.

• What kind of budget you have to spend on plants or any work in your yard.
  

And a lot of other questions besides those:-)

Removing large trees is, itself, pretty expensive - at least in my neck of the woods. Especially trees near a house - that requires an experienced crew who can climb and take them down in sections so they don't damage the house!

If you are concerned about the health of the trees, it would be worth the investment to have a licensed arborist come out and inspect them and tell you what kind of shape they're in and what kind of life-span they have left. It may be that one is in bad need of removal, but not all of them - you need to know this plus you need to get some prices for removal so you know where you are.

http://www.shadetrees.com/ has a search function for different kinds of shade trees by different requirements; size, fall color, etc. - it's a nursery located in Oregon, so I assume all the trees they list will grow in your area. This might help you to narrow downa list of trees that you like that would meet your requirements.

-- posted by Marge_Talt

» pfleeg - Re: Re: Replacements for big leaf maples?

Kirk, I love your pics and LOVE the vine maples, but know they too can get quite large. Is yours a smaller variety?

-- posted by pfleeg

» pfleeg - Re: Re: Replacements for big leaf maples?

Marge, thanks soooo much for the website. Boring, OR is actually within a reasonable driving distance from us. If nothing else, I can reference the website for info.

I hate the idea of taking down our trees, but I've been told that at this stage of maturity, they begin to die from the inside out. We're already seeing evidence by the large branches that fall after any kind of wind. You're right about the expense, we've been quoted $1,000 per tree. Because of the proximity to both the river (where they can not be dumped) and our house (save the roof!), we definitely would have to hire a professional that has access to the needed equipment. The smallest tree is definitely a candidate, as a good part of the roots are no longer attached to the tree, and the trunk is split near the top.

To answer your other questions:

How you use your yard now;

-We are in the process of 'flip flopping' the house so that the new 'front' faces the river. We'll build a porch that runs most of the length of the river side of the house. The soon to be front yard will be for general enjoyment. The far end, which is currently enclosed with chain link, will be an area for a nice garden shed and veggie garden.

How you would like to use it if the trees weren't there and you could make some changes to grade within the yard - staying away from the river retaining wall;

-I'd like to reintroduce smaller trees into the part of the yard that would eventually still shade the house in summer. I am (always) in the process of designing/planting/redesigning/replanting/adding to/etc the shade gardens there. As far as grading, we have been told by city authorities that we are not allowed to grade, due to our proximity to the river. Believe me, that was my first plan!

How much interest you have in gardening (would ou like to plant some flowering shrubs, perennials, annuals?)

- Let's put it this way, during gardening season, my family knows where to find me anytime I'm not at work (including after dark). LOL! Although I love and lust after most plants, I'm trying to focus on gardening more with natives. Our yard borders a natural wildlife habitat, which I am mindful of when planning the gardens.

What the orientation of the site is - like which direction is the house - where does the sun hit? That sort of thing.

-Ummmmmm.... you've asked this of the directionally challenged. :D If I would have to guess, the area we're looking at faces west. If it weren't for the trees, this yard would get the afternoon sun.

What kind of soil you have; what kind of
drainage.

- Although my soil is actually pretty good, I'm always amending it.

What kind of budget you have to spend on plants or any work in your yard.

- I'm budget-wise, and try to do as much of the work myself as I'm capable of. If that means it takes me years, rather than a season to finish the landscaping, then so be it. My friends consider me the queen of sniffing out true gardening deals.

-- posted by pfleeg

» Kirk_Johnson - Re: Re: Re: Replacements for big leaf maples?

Vine maples get to be about 20 to 30 feet tall after many years and the shade is less dense than that cast by Japanese maples. An important consideration about vine maples and the various forms of Japanese maples is to find out from local nurseries if their leaves will scorch in full sun in your area - especially on the west side of your house.

-- posted by Kirk_Johnson

» Marge_Talt - Re: Replacements for big leaf maples?

Wow! Laurie, sounds like you've got your work cut out for you:-)

Yes, you would need a good, professional tree crew - no quesion about it. I've had to have several large trees near the house taken out - hit by lightening and other interesting little problems. I can tell you a good crew is worth every penny; a lousy crew will cost you money you didn't want to spend!

That smaller tree sounds like it needs to come out NOW.

When you get the trees taken down, make sure the crew has a big chipper so they can chip up all but the trunk and largest branches. Then, get them to dump those chips somewhere on your property and let them rot. There is nothing like well rotted woodchips for mulch or incorporating into the soil or just planting into once they get really rotted. Plus, you can use the semi-rotted chips for path surfacing. Takes a few years for a pile to rot down, but it's black gold when it does.

If you have a fireplace; you'll also get a nice free supply of fire wood. If you don't have one, build an outdoor barbeque and use it for that:-)

I wonder just what extent you're not allowed to grade? I can see the problems with getting a dozer in there and moving a lot of earth because even with silt fencing, there's always a lot of washing of soil and I am sure that's why they don't want this done as it would wash straight down into the river.

However, seems to me you might be able to do some leveling with some retaining walls and then filling in behind them, rather than heavy grading. Would seem to me that retaining that slope a bit would help ensure that there is no washing into the river, but logic doesn't always prevail with government agencies!

I would expect that most of your outdoor living will happen on the porch, so you won't have need for some large patio area. But a little leveling of some areas would make a more pleasant garden right off the porch where activities will be concentrated (I imagine).

Seems to me that a porch roof will provide shade for sitting, so huge shade trees would not be a necessity for enjoyment of the outdoor living area.

If that is the case, then I'd suggest looking at smaller trees; concentrating on those that provide the most interest during the time you will be using the porch - flowers, fruit, bark and form - not to mention leaf - there are some neat trees with variegated foliage out there:-) A tree whose ultimate height is 20 or 30 feet (6-9m) will cast considerable shade without turning out to dominate the entire area.

I'd also be inclined to live on that porch for a season; see which spots are most used and then plant trees to frame the view of the river from those places. That's a very unique and dramatic view; you need to make the most of it IMO. Also consider any views from 2nd story windows which now probably look smack into the crowns of the large trees instead of out and over the river.

If you're going to be doing construction, that's the time to remove the tree(s) closest to the house on that side. If they are starting to decline, construction activity will only speed the process. If not from digging footings, then from compacting the soil with machines, materials and large booted feet tramping back and forth.

Let us know which tree(s) you decide on, OK?

-- posted by Marge_Talt

» pfleeg - Re: Re: Replacements for big leaf maples?

Thanks for the suggestions. I'm going to talk to the city again about a stone retaining wall and fill on the lower end of the yard, where you first enter. And, I'll get a tree guy over here to remove the smaller tree and probably the one closest to the house, and maybe reshape the others so that their branches don't hang over our roof.

I'm thinking a tapestry of dwarf evergreens to border the yard and hide the ugly chain link fence, with smaller deciduous trees interspersed. I do like the idea of the vine maples, now that I know they don't get so huge. The one behind my in-laws' (that they had to have removed) must have been an exception, as it was monstrous. Another idea is to replace the chain link with a rustic split rail fence, which will still provide a safety rail, allow the river view, and look a heck of a lot nicer!

-- posted by pfleeg

» Kirk_Johnson - Re: Re: Re: Replacements for big leaf maples?

I really like the idea of replacing the chain link fence with a split rail fence. Once you do that, you will probably just need some decidious trees for shade and possibly to frame your view of the river.

With the cost of plants, a split rail fence might not be any more expensive than buying a lot of plants and it will have an immediate impact. Most woody plants need a decade or more of growth to really give their desired effect - at least when correctly spaced to allow for their size at maturity.

I have never heard of a monstrous vine maple. That must have been another kind of maple - possibly with leaves similar to those of vine maples.

-- posted by Kirk_Johnson

» Marge_Talt - Re: Replacements for big leaf maples?

Maybe if you approach the city with 'build a retaining wall' instead of 'grading', you'll get more cooperation from them. There are often 'buzz' words that always get a negative reaction from the powers that be - they don't hear anything beyond the 'word':-)

I agree with Kirk - I'd look at replacing that chain link fence rather than having to try to plant it out. Hiding it will also hide your view of the river, which is spectacular. If you went with a post and rail, you could plant selectively to enhance the view. If you were worried about small pets or kids getting through the fence, you could tack some hardware cloth from ground to first rail..you wouldn't see it after the first year.

Can't wait to see some 'after' pix! Be sure to post here if you put some up on the web!

-- posted by Marge_Talt