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Crossing the Doberman and Rottweiler for color
This archived discussion is "read only".
» beth61 - Crossing of the dobie and rottie I have a friend that is a doberman breeder and she is very interested in genetics. We always joke back and forth about which breed is better. We were discussing color one day and she said that the doberman's color was only the black/tan color until they bred in the "old world" rottweiler to get all the colors that they have today. Does any one else know about this or where I can find something on it? Thanks!!-- posted by beth61 » biogardener - Right on I am a cat lover and was waiting for a dog lover to answer this question. Since it isn't happening, I will tell you what I know.Dobermans are my favorite dogs, not because I chose them but because they chose me. I seem to be every doberman's prime target of protection. Maybe I need more protection than other people. Don't ask me. Anyway, I grew up in the dog's country of origin and learned things about the breed early in life by asking a lot of questions. This is what I learned: Ludwig Dobermann was looking for two main traits in a dog, gentleness and fierceness, and those two traits are still the dog's most recognizable. The gentleness comes from the weimaraner, the gentlest dog breed known at that time, one which will easily adopt orphaned puppies and even kittens. Dobermann crossed the Weimaraner with the fierce pinscher which is a terrier, i.e. a hunting dog, bred to hung rodents. Dobermann was, among other things, the town's dog catcher, so he certainly knew what to expect from dogs. The typical doberman coloring appears to come from the pinscher. The weimaraner is of one solid color of brown or beige. All the ones I have ever seen were quite light in color. Darker colors in normally predominate in breeding. The original doberman has been crossed with several other breeds by people who continued the work of Ludwig Dobermann. The coloring rottweiler has the same coloring as the pinscher, all right, so I can understand why your friend believes it to originate with the rottweiler. Why don't you call it a draw. Let's say, the color came from the pinscher originally but was reinforced by the rottweiler. Here are the breeds whose blood flows in the doberman's veins: weimaraner, pinscher, rottweiler, black greyhound, schnauzer, alsacian (German shepherd). I read on one website that the dog's original dangerous fierceness has been toned down through breeding. That does not agree with what I learned in my childhood. I was always told that the gentleness comes from the weimaraner, not from later breeding. In my experience, dobermans are the most loyal protective dogs to whomever they decide to adopt. They will also attack anyone who even thinks a bad thought about their adopted owner. My miniature doberman was the gentlest dog I have ever known, but he would go berserk if certain people came within 100 feet of our house. There is no way any burglar could ever have gotten near the house without first shooting that dog.
-- posted by biogardener » WMSmith - Re: Crossing of the dobie and rottie In response to message posted by beth61:Sorry it has taken me so long to get back with you. I've been out of town on a much needed vacation. First off, let me say, I love Dobermans. A Dobie mix helped raise me, so that breed will always hold a special place in my heart. Of course I am a little biased toward another breed now ... gee, I wonder what breed that is? LOL! My understanding was Rottweilers figured prominantly in the Doberman's makeup from the very beginning. However, during the time Mr. Doberman was developing his breed, Rottweilers of that day were not exactly the same dog we see today. There wasn't an actual standard for them. If they could do the work required of them, they lived and bred. In those days, there were Rotties with coat colors that are not permissible today, like red and wolf gray. The black and tan coat didn't become the law of the land until the early 1920's. So it's very possible that some of the Doberman's coat colors came from those old Rotties. However, since much of Louis Doberman's work isn't documented, it's hard to say for sure. He used several breeds to develop his dog. And of the breeds that we know for sure that he used, serval of those are now extinct. I visited the Doberman Pinscher Club of America's website and found the following quote on their breed history page: "The Doberman Pinscher derived its name from Louis Dobermann of Apolda, Thuringia, whose breeding experiments were reputedly involved in its early development. After his death in 1894, the Germans named the breed Dobermann-pinscher in his honor, but a half century later dropped the pinscher on the grounds that this German word for terrier was no longer appropriate. The British did the same thing a few years later. The Miniature Pinscher is not a miniature Doberman and the two breeds are not related. There are no records, only speculation, as to the dogs which went into the creation of the original Doberman, but it is documented that crosses were made to two of the English breeds around the turn of the century, using the Black and Tan Manchester Terrier and the black English Greyhound, in order to improve the Doberman's appearance. It is generally accepted as fact that the two German breeds, which played a major role in the Doberman's ancestry were: the old German Shepherd, now extinct: and the German Pinscher - the ancestors of the Rottweiler and the Weimaraner. The old German Shepherd contributed ruggedness, intelligence and physical and mental soundness, with the Pinscher adding the terrier fire and quick reaction time. The Weimaraner gave to the Doberman its hunting, retrieving and scenting capabilities, for the Weimar Pointer, as it was called, was an all purpose hunting dog. However, it was to the Rottweiler which the early Doberman strongly resembled, that the breed owes so much of its substance, bravery and reliable guarding ability."
It is really a very interesting site. They have an article on the temperament original temperment and coat color that you might find interesting. -- posted by WMSmith » biogardener - Please, please Please, please, do not use the spell checker in discussions. You can look at it and then backspace to make the corrections manually, but do not make corrections in the spell checker. That is how the awful errors occurred in the above posting. I can't understand the message because of it. I wish I could.BTW, the man's name is Ludwig Dobermann. Any other spelling is an attempt to make a German name conform to other languages. Most people resent having their names distorted to make them conform to the standards of another language. When I see the given name changed to French and the surname changed to English, I wonder how accurate the rest of the information on the webpage is. I therefore don't bother reading those webpages. -- posted by biogardener » WMSmith - Re: Please, please In response to message posted by biogardener:The post you were talking about has now been repaired, sorry for the difficulty. As for my information, I took it from the Doberman Pinscher Club of America's website. This is the parent club for the breed in this country and was founded in 1921, when the AKC first recognized the breed. -- posted by WMSmith » ibreeddoberman - Dobies Bio-whatever was rude and it is obvious she needs to take lessons from the lovable dobermans about manners.Your posting was not only more informative, but most correct. Sour grapes. I have 3 Dobermans and 1 rescued Rottweiler. She is as sweet and lovable as my Dobies. What do you call a Doberman Rottweiler mix? -- posted by ibreeddoberman » StrmDncr - Re: Re: Crossing of the dobie and rottie In response to Re: Crossing of the dobie and rottie posted by WMSmith:Wendy, for some reason your name rings a bell with me. Have you been published else where? Or do you show your dogs? This will give you a good idea of how the Dobermans temperament has changed over the years. -- posted by StrmDncr » WMSmith - Re: Re: Re: Crossing of the dobie and rottie In response to Re: Re: Crossing of the dobie and rottie posted by StrmDncr:Pat, Thanks for the interesting link. You are quite correct about color being the least worry when these breeds were orignially developed. It was function or perish. Likewise, when breeders only focus only on color that opens the door to all kinds of bad things (if only people wanting red Rotties and Albino Dobermans would realize that). I'm afraid this the only topic that I write for. However, I've been at this for quite a while now, so it's possible that you've seen some of my work before. I've only shown in obedience and even then not very actively. Hopefully that'll be changing in the spring though, because I hope to have my girl ready for the ring by then. -- posted by WMSmith » ray_harris - Crossing of the dobie and rottie In response to Crossing of the dobie and rottie posted by beth61:The breed is believed to have been created from several different breeds of dogs that had the characteristics that Dobermann was looking for, including the Pinscher, the Rottweiler, the Thuringian Shepherd Dog, the black Greyhound, the Great Dane, the Weimaraner, the German Shorthaired Pointer, and the German Shepherd Dog. The exact ratios of mixing, and even the exact breeds that were used, remains uncertain to this day, although many experts believe that the Dobermann is a combination of at least four of these breeds. The single exception is the documented cross with the Greyhound. It is also widely believed that the German Shepherd gene pool was the single largest contributor to the Dobermann breed. -- posted by ray_harris
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