Protecting the American Flag
- lperry
- spondulix
-
Brian Tubbs
- lperry
- cyberkrinn
-
Brian Tubbs
- cyberkrinn
- spondulix11
- spondulix11
- plox
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» lperry - Re: Joining a little late in the game...
In response to message posted by cyberkrinn:I agree, but I would add that in order for the speech or expression to be effective the symbol has to carry some import. I've always had the feeling that flag burners are a pretty patriotic bunch, in the sense that by choosing the flag as their means of expression they lend gravity to its symbolism-- the ultimate, "Hey wake up, America!"
-- posted by lperry
» spondulix - Re: Re: Joining a little late in the game...
In response to message posted by lperry:Hi cyberkrinn and Iperry, glad to get your responses. It really bothers me to see the flag burned by anyone but I recognise as you have both pointed out that it is a act of patriotism by at least some who have choosen to burn the flag, it's to bad that Tim McVeigh didn't choose that path instead of murder.
Spondulix
-- posted by spondulix
»
Brian Tubbs
- Technical Correction, Cyberkrinn
Your statement: "It is the Constitution that truly symbolizes what our country stands for. It is the definitive article, describing in detail exactly the principles which make us so unique as a country."
I disagree. The Constitution does not (and was not intended to) 'truly symbolize what our nation stands for' and it most certainly does not 'describe in detail exactly the principles which make us so unique as a country.'
The Constitution was a "bundle of compromises" that established the framework within which the government of the United States, and that of the various states, could function.
Granted, the Bill of Rights outlines some of our basic principles, but that is not the same thing as what you seem to be saying.
If you're looking for a statement of principles in the founding era, you've got to go back a few more years to the Declaration of Independence. THAT was the document that Jefferson and the Founders in the Second Continental Congress intended to define exactly WHY the colonies were separating from Britain and WHAT they (as a new country) were going to stand for.
The Declaration addresses the soul of America. The Constitution deals more with its physical body and how it operates as a civilized country.
-- posted by Brian Tubbs
» cyberkrinn - Re: Technical Correction, Cyberkrinn
In response to message posted by BrianTubbs:Yes, well, it may be a "bundle of compromises" as you describe it, but I am willing to stick my neck out and stand by my claim.
While the Declaration - agreed, a truly remarkable document - laid the framework, if you will, it is the Constitution which built the very foundation around that framework and which is really what we are all about as a nation.
Many other countries since 1776 have declared independence from another oppressive government. That is no longer a unique status. However, few have created a series of laws, etc. to equal our complicated Constitution, without which we would just be any country in Europe.
-- posted by cyberkrinn
»
Brian Tubbs
- Re: Re: Technical Correction, Cyberkrinn
I'll grant that the Preamble to the Constitution affirms our philosophical underpinnings and I've already conceded that the Bill of Rights (part of our Constitution) and several subsequent amendments (such as the 14th Amendment in particular) enshrined into specific law many of the guarantees our ancestors fought for in the American Revolution. But...
It's very problematic to say that the Constitution embodies "what we are all about as a nation." Nevertheless, I am not disputing that it was the first (and most) significant step toward realizing (in tangible form) the dream outlined in the Declaration of Independence. As such, it warrants a high place in our hearts.
I don't think we're that far apart here, but let me respectfully respond to your implication that the Declaration of Independence isn't all that unique. People sometimes look at the Declaration as merely a statement of separation, and they reduce it to the level of a museum artifact.
The Founders, particularly the signers of the Declaration, would strongly disagree with this. The Declaration did more than just announce our separation from England and it did more than serve as a public relations or propaganda piece for the Continental Congress.
You have to understand what Jefferson did when he wrote the Declaration. He gathered and condensed into one document all the various philosophical and ideological arguments that had been used, up until that time, to justify armed resistance against the British Crown AS WELL AS all the documents that had informed the western political tradition (i.e., Scripture, Magna Carta, Locke, Coke, Blackstone, etc.) that they embraced.
The Second Continental Congress approved a document that clearly and eloquently explained what the new United States of America would be all about - not just that it was coming into existence.
The Declaration ranks higher than the Constitution in describing and influencing our philosophical underpinnings and national origins, because that is precisely what it was intended to do. The Constitution was focused on establishing our government, while the Declaration focused on defining us as a people.
Respectfully,
-- posted by Brian Tubbs
» cyberkrinn - Re: Re: Re: Technical Correction, Cyberkrinn
In response to message posted by BrianTubbs:
Brian, I did not say the Declaration of Independence document wasn't unique. I said that many other nations have declared themselves independent from other nations over the years.
I realize all of you, with the exception of Plox, are unfamiliar with me. Let me be clear - I love everything about this country (NO, I am not suggesting you questioned my patriotism) and as such, I hold all of our national symbols close to my heart. I had the extreme good fortune to be raised in the Philadelphia suburbs and have spent countless hours in the buildings where our forefathers started this country. I am fully aware of the significance of their actions, the sacrifices they made to give us this very real experiment in goverment. Believe me, the impact of that one document is not lost on me.
You say, "the Constitution was focused on establishing our government, while the Declaration focused on defining us as a people." Here's a thought: the DofI was written over two hundred years ago, as was the Constitution. However, over the years, as who we are has evolved, so has our Constitution. As we change, it changes. Maybe not as dramatically, but it does change. I can't think of anything more representative of who we are than the laws which we feel are important enough to add to our Constitution. No easy process. Again, you may only see this as the setting up of a government, but I see it as a representation of what we value and what we believe ourselves to be. We set our rules by the morals by which we live. That says a lot about who we are.
I understand the point you are trying to make and it is a valid one. However, the DofI hasn't changed in over 200 years and we have, and the only thing - besides popular culture - that defines that change and our view of ourselves as a nation is the Constitution.
I doubt we are going to see eye to eye on this and I completely respect your opinion. Let's move on.
Likewise,
-- posted by cyberkrinn
» spondulix11 - Re: Re: Re: Re: Technical Correction, Cyberkrinn
In response to message posted by cyberkrinn:I watched the Simpson's cartoon about this issue, if you get a chance you should watch it. It should be mandatory for all school students to watch.
spondulix
-- posted by spondulix11
» spondulix11 - Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Technical Correction, Cyberkrinn
In response to message posted by spondulix11:The simpson song in part
I'm an amendment-to-be, yes an amendment-to-be
And I'm hoping that they'll ratify me.
There's a lot of flag-burners
who have got too much freedom
I want to make it legal
For policemen to beat'em
Cause there's limits to our liberties
At least I hope and pray that there are
Cause those liberal freaks go too far.
I didn't find the rest of the song.
spondulic
-- posted by spondulix11
» plox - flag burning
Here's a site where you can send a message to your representative.http://www.workingforchange.com/activism...
-- posted by plox
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