The Great Wall of China

Top 9. Apr 14, 1999 9:19 AM

» Lance_Lindley - Hydraulic Despotism & Confucian Legalism

One of the things I found interesting about the Qin Emperor was that he is the only emperor in history to have actually put into practice a brand of Confucianism called "Legalism," which believed that the fact a man has become emperor must mean that he is in line with heaven, and therefore he can do whatever the heck he wants. Thus the Qin Emperor had no qualms about burying hundreds of scholars alive, etc.

Have you ever heard of the theory of hydraluic despotism? I'm trying to remember whose theory it was, Wittvogel/Stewart, perhaps? Anyway, it has to do with a correlation between how dependent people are upon the central government for water supply and how despotic a government can be. In short, in a pre-modern rainfall society, the government didn't provide much service, therefore it couldn't get away with a whole lot before people would rebel. In a massively hydraulic society like China, however, only the central government had the wherewithal to maintain the huge and complex systems of dams and dykes, so to rebel against it was to invite disaster not only for your little province, but for everybody down the line as well, so you had to have really good reason. In China, that reason almost always was that the government was already getting lax in maintaining the hydraulics, thus the disasters signalling the Confucian "revocation of the mandate of heaven," and the subsequent rebellion, overthrow, etc. that made up the Chinese dynastic cycle. Anyway, it's a neat book, (can't find my notes, so I can't find the title!) but the theory falls apart in subsequent books. It has a hard time explaining Japan, too, which was rainfall-based, but had strong central authority early on. (Historians now think it was the Sekkanke Fujiwara's use of the Minamoto warrior family as hired thugs that allowed this abberration from the theory). Man, did I get off on a tangent. Sorry. 8^)

-- posted by Lance_Lindley

Top 10. Apr 14, 1999 3:20 PM

» mariaandrea - Legalism

Yes, there were three main philosophies that shaped Chinese thought and government. Confucianism, Daoism and Legalism. Confuciansim maintained that the emperor had a Mandate from Heaven to rule as long as he was an ethical and virtuous man who ruled by example. When disaster occurred people believed that mandate had run out. Legalists believed that man was not "good" by nature and therefore strict laws were necessary to maintain peace and order and that it didn't matter whether or not a ruler was virtuous because the law was the highest power. The Qin Legalist Dynasty abolished the feudal system and brought the country under strict control. Though many might debate this, Legalism was one of the reasons Maoists later approved of the Qin Dynasty after centuries of official abhorence by Imperial Confucianists.

The control of water has always been central to China. They call the Yellow River "China's Sorrow" because of the devastating effects of flooding when it escapes control. I was not aware of the hydraulic despotism theory, however, and if you can find the title of that book, I would really like to read it. It sounds reasonable as far as China's cyclical progression, though I have to say that, however important, it would not be the only reason for the overthrow of dynasties. (I know, pretty presumptuous considering I haven't actually read the book!) It's interesting to note here that Confucianist thought had no problem accepting that an overthrown ruler had lost the mandate and by virtue of victory, heaven had bestowed the mandate on whoever had led a successful rebellion. The secret societies, usually born from hardship and disaster (okay, hydraulic despotism) also played roles in uprisings.

Anyway, if you can find the title, I would love to know. I don't know anyone who can make me run to my books as fast as you can! :-) I really appreciate all your thoughts here!

Maria Christensen

<img src="http://www.suite101.com/files/topics/3760/files/yinyang.gif" align="center" border=0>

Oriental History

-- posted by mariaandrea

Top 11. Apr 15, 1999 7:34 AM

» Lance_Lindley - runnin' to the books

Like I said, nobody else will talk about this stuff with me! ;-) Now if I could just find my stupid notebook with all the stuff about hydraulic despotism in it...

Oh, and I think I didn't explain myself very well, the collapse of the dams wasn't the only reason for rebellion, it was just the reason why people felt it was OK to go ahead and do it, since the government was already neglecting the system anyway, a military action wouldn't make things any WORSE. (plus it was bringing about the floods and famine that signalled the loss of the mandate).

Cheers! Arigatou! Shye-shye ni!
Lance

-- posted by Lance_Lindley

Top 12. Apr 15, 1999 6:51 PM

» mariaandrea - Water

Sorry, I should have read your posting more closely. It makes perfect sense now. Government corruption, the control of water, the desire of the Chinese people for stability, and the willingness to revolt to solve all three problems. There has certainly been a lot of precedent for rebellion in China. Did you know that there are still places in China where water is brought to the fields in buckets hanging off poles? And a bicycle powered, human pedaled water mill contraption that carries water from irrigation ditches to the fields. It's startling to see and interesting to conjecture about the future.
Gosh, I hope you find your notes. :-) I have a whole summer coming up where I can actually read for fun! Does this kind of material make me a geek? Ah, well..probably.

Maria Christensen

<img src="http://www.suite101.com/files/topics/3760/files/yinyang.gif" align="center" border=0>

Oriental History

-- posted by mariaandrea

Top 13. Apr 15, 1999 10:01 PM

» Lance_Lindley - a little "light" reading

Well, I found the books online, but I hope you've been stockpiling money over the winter, because they are EXPENSIVE! The theory was indeed by Karl Wittfogel (I misspelled it before) and Julianna Steward. Their works can be found at Barnes and Noble for a pretty penny. Being there in the States, maybe you can find them cheaper in a Half Priced Books or something. I was told to avoid Wittfogel's later works, as he seems to have tried to carry his theory too far and use it to explain other societies where it just won't work. My history prof put it simply: "He went insane." 8^)

A couple of more very interesting theories regarding the development of Eastern civilizations can be found in Willam H. McNeill's Plagues and Peoples and William Wayne Ferris' Population, Disease, and Land in Early Japan 645-900. Those view early social evolution as a resonse to external factors -- primarily disease -- and are MUCH less expensive. 8^)

Fellow history geek and Japan Editor,

-- posted by Lance_Lindley

Top 14. Apr 16, 1999 10:03 PM

» mariaandrea - FREE!

Please tell me the book you are referring to is "Oriental Despotism: A Comparative Study of Total Power." Because if it is, it's in my college library. As are the other two books. I don't think they'll get checked out over the summer, so as soon as finals are over...:-) Geek week here I come!

Maria Christensen

<img src="http://www.suite101.com/files/topics/3760/files/yinyang.gif" align="center" border=0>

Oriental History

-- posted by mariaandrea

Top 15. Apr 18, 1999 6:32 PM

» Lance_Lindley - Ah, libraries! I often forget about them.

Those perks of living in a country where there are vast repositories of books in a language you can actually read... It's been about 7 years...

Yes, that would be the book. Have a geeking good time! 8^)

-- posted by Lance_Lindley