A Declaration of War; By My Brethren You

» Grendel48 - Truth is stranger than fiction.

I enjoyed reading this article, although I admittedly occupy the opposite side of the fence. Before I begin my rebuttal I have to question the authors use of the term and title of Fascism? Perhaps I'm ignorant to the proper meaning or the context in which this term was so liberally applied, however I took the article to be a condemnation of Socialism and it's various leftist affiliates, which my education has set at the opposite end of the political spectrum from a fascist regime. Perhaps the author would care to clarify.

I titled my response Truth is stranger than fiction for a reason, the author suggested that those of us who believe causes such as environmentalism and liberal "open minded" have merit, were somehow distorting facts to instill fear in order to achieve action. It has never been my experience that those who care for social and environmental concerns have had to work excessively hard to produce rich mines of material displaying the degeneration of our planet. It is not the matter of a fish or bird, but droves of species in all categories of existence being driven to extinction. Conceivably this makes little difference to the author of the article, there are those who refuse to relate these issues of genocide as being "their problem". Though I am not myself inclined to see it this way, my dastardly liberal outlook demands that I accept what I see as the failures of others opinions. Still I fail to see how one can claim that conservation and environmental protection are not a problem. To the author I say "you claim that you will not be impoverished to save a bird! That you will not destroy farms to save a fish! Do you then deny that the world is a delicately balanced system? That we are like the child's game "Jenga" with man sitting at the top of this teetering tower? Surely then with this simple analogy you can admit that an upward climb cannot be continued forever, no matter what! But that with careful and easy steps we can make the game last longer. And if you deny the truth of this things, can you really expect anyone to take you seriously?

-- posted by Grendel48

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» tyrtaeus - Re: Truth is stranger than fiction.

In response to message posted by Grendel48:

Thank you so much for your response. Very well written, and I’m happy to hear from you.

You have indicated - if I read correctly - that there is a difference between Fascism and Socialism? And that, perhaps, I was using a liberal application in a comparison of the two?
I submit there may be some technical definition difference. Despite this, in reality and action you can not have one without the other. The evils of human nature will always guide such ideologies to an equally harmful end.
Both Fascism, and Socialism, incorporate a common flaw. That the government is the foundation of society, and that the citizens of such society - as individuals, and groups - are inferior to said government. This is also true for Communism, Imperialism, and Nationalism. All have particular directions to move society. However, the end of the path is always the same. An over powering government. A heavy burden on the general public. But most of all, a systematic animosity for Free Will.

A common reaction to such a truthful look at leftist special interest groups, and their true objectives, is to claim that the author some how cares nothing for the beauty of the Earth, and would like to see the entire planet dead, and in turmoil.
Of course, no human with in the compounds of reason would wish the destruction of the planet. At the same point, no human within the compounds of reason could give mankind the ability to destroy the planet - by any means attemptable, or conceivable.
The reader is attempting to suggest that I am declaring some form of ignorance to the plight of our planet. This is not my point at all. I am suggesting that our planet has no plight, and therefore, there is no need for ignorance or insightfulness.

So yes, I do deny that the world is a delicately balanced system. At least, to the degree that environmentalist suggest we believe it to be.

If there is any childhood game which truly represents the argument here, it is "Ring Around the Roses." Every environmentalist is encircled around the Earth [figuratively] dancing, and awaiting for everyone to fall down. I simply believe mankind is too superficial to ever have the ability to accomplish what so many of you fear.
We attempted over our own existence to drive specific human species to extension. And, we failed. Total genocide has yet to be accomplished. This alone proves the point towards our weakness on the issue. If we can’t annihilate our own equally intelligent species, how can we have the smarts to destroy the entire Earth?

In the end, my problem is not so much with the act of conservation. Conservation is a sound additive to ones life style. Though, a totality of conservation, or environmental protect, is not the answer - California is good example of this ideological imbalance. My problem is with the method in which many of the groups I mentioned enforce their view. Violating logic, but most of all, creating more hardships than harmony.
The clear truth behind environmental, and certain civil rights, groups are covers for a more political agenda. An agenda which is set on using peoples natural fear of death. Silently stating, "Our Representative Republic is the destroyer of the Earth, and the government must direct us all to a more controlled way of life." Governmental control is the only solution for such ideologies.

To be impoverished to protect a bird, or to starve a nation for a fish, is necessary for this "liberal" line of thinking; call it Fascism, Socialism, Communism, Nationalism, or Imperialism, it does not matter. The basses is to create chaos. Chaos weakens the spirit, which allows such emotionally weak philosophies to weave their way in.

What I say can be extinct, what can be annihilated, is our Freedom. That is the true dastardly motivation behind this modern concerned "liberalism."

As for an upward climb, comparatively with a livable Earth? It is a more viable existence, and future, than any science fictional belief in a lost ozone, and children being born with gas mask. Yes, we can continue to advance our existence, and maintain a "healthy environment." As long, as we remain a nation of Free thought, little government regulation, and open innovation. The rational still out number the wicked.

Again, thank you for the response, and goodwill to you.

-- posted by tyrtaeus

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» Grendel48 - Re: Re: Truth is stranger than fiction.

In response to message posted by tyrtaeus:

Your message of lessened government involvement was made much clearer by your response. However I find much of your argument vague and unfounded, despite the quoted Latin which I was most impressed by!
So your an Anarchist? It might not be a label you would give yourself but you haven't identified with any other political ideology that I can pick up on. My problem is not that you are against Fascism an Communism (examples of the two extremes of the spectrum) and indeed that you seem to be against any form of political thought. My gripe is with refuting them both on the same grounds.
It would be futile to continue debating over whether or not they are or are not the same thing, (they obviously aren't ) but what I would like to know is what you see as a replacement for the machine of government?

-- posted by Grendel48

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» tyrtaeus - Re: Re: Re: Truth is stranger than fiction.

In response to message posted by Grendel48:

My deepest apologies Grendel48 if my answer has proven, in some way, to be vague. Primarily on my personal political stance. I merely wished to highlight the fallibility of these particular social/political forms. I wanted to stress the similarities of each [Fascism, Socialism, Communism, Imperialism, Nationalism] in that each always leads to the oppression of ALL citizens.
As for my personal political stance, no I am not an Anarchist! I, of course, stand with Jefferson, and the political manuscripts of the Federalist papers. The social cynicisms of Aristotle, Socrates, Seneca, Plato, even a partial lean towards Nitzesche, and political understanding through Machiavelli.
The Grecian foundation of a Republic my friend. A Republic is admittedly flawed, yes. Yet, it is so balanced within its flaws. The people have control. The government is subservient to the Will of the people. Not a Democracy! Democracies are too fickle. Under a Republic the people have control, however they are guided by a Constitution based on logic and judicious law.
One good reason is that a Republic can alter its state to better itself (i.e. civil rights), without altering its primary edict towards freedom and justice.

My main argument in this article is against the left, for I see their success in moving this Republic from its founding philosophy of limited government. Government is necessary indeed, although only to give people a sense of security – nothing more.
Social programs, laws that red flag emotion, class warfare/envy, political correctness (i.e. censorship), and racial instigation (i.e. diversity), are all stages these leftist play from.

Any form of government, which limits the liberties of the human spirit, is extreme. Therefore, Fascism, Socialism, Communism, Imperialism, and Nationalism are the same. To attempt to justify any of them is most ineffectual. Whether they come with a smile, or a gun, the end results are always the same – Oppression.

The replacement for the “machine of government” has already been established. Our very own Constitutional Republic. The peoples sensible liberty over government. A common understanding of self reliance. The reality of winners and losers. The strive for individual success, without governmental help, or interference.

This is the answer. This is true Liberalism.

-- posted by tyrtaeus

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» Grendel48 - Re: Re: Re: Re: Truth is stranger than fiction.

In response to message posted by tyrtaeus:

Let me first establish for the record that my knowledge of political philosophy is limited in the extreme. I have read Plato's "The Republic" on my own, so one could hardly say that I've studied it, as for others such as Machiavelli and Aristotle... well there on my list of summer readings.
What I will say is that I am not a stupid person and I am capable of forming my own thoughts even without the advantage of classical readings. I consider myself a moderate intellectual, I am not of supreme intelligence although neither am I a dunce, and as such have found that the left of the spectrum seems to coincide with my outlook far more often than that of the right. At 21 perhaps I'm a bit idealistic in thinking that the greater good of people and the planet will only be achieved when we over come the selfish desires of our egos. Capitalism feeds on consumerism for survival. The US is the political embodiment of Capitalism. Therefore those who hold political office are concerned wholly by one basic principal. Namely keep the people consuming!
In order to accomplish that they play people against each other, attempt to make everyone envious of someone else. Above all pushing the mentality that "too much is just enough", to quote Bill Maher.
When I started this response I was sure it was going somewhere now it seems to have degenerated into an anti capitalist rant, but then why not. I find the vast majority of people to be insubstantial, in a time when we should be arriving at some sort of spiritual climax. Money is more important than happiness, and God (although I am an atheist) is being replaced by corporations.
Take Christmas for example. It hasn't been a religious holiday for a long time. Back when the Roman's were dominating Europe the birthday of Christ was rearranged to December 25 so that it coincided with a pagan holiday and therefore eased conversion. Today Christ is being usurped by Santa clause and the church has moved to the mall.
My alignment with the left is far more a rejection of capitalism and the black hearted ministrations of the right than it is a wholehearted belief that socialism is the key to mans future. In closing I want to add that my perception of "The Republic" was that it was an early form of communism, and that Plato's Republic would be a very boring and repressive place to live. Also if you believe that less government is the way to happiness, then ideological isn't that an aim of the left wing? Stalinism or Maoism does not equal communism! They were dictators who perverted the ideal for personal power.
Glad you responded, and I look forward to hearing from you again.

-- posted by Grendel48

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» tyrtaeus - Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Truth is stranger than fiction.

In response to message posted by Grendel48:

My dear friend, you are absolutely correct. We are a Capitalist economy. And yes, Capitalism is a system, which pushes people to conduct consumer competition.

A major problem (for me) when it comes to the left is their blurring definitions, when it suites a political purpose. Such as "competition" and "selfishness." There is a fine line in every situation, and in every thought pattern. Especially when it comes to political philosophy.

Capitalism is an economical statehood, where as Republicanism a philosophical form of government. When the governmental philosophy (i.e. socialism) becomes controller of the economical statehood the lines are crossed, and blurred (i.e. welfare, social security, healthcare, public education).

Yes I am a Capitalist. Yes I enjoy grand scales of competition. Why? Because it is human nature, and it maintains the human need to live and strive for better existence. Yes, politicians are the ones who pull out all the stops for consumerism.
However, it comes down to two prospects; either you are a consumer of free and innovated products, that assist it the welfare of everyone and everything; or you are a consumer of one centralized product "government welfare." A product that is stale, "one size fits all," and of low quality. Both to you, and your environment.

To quote a comedian, for comical purposes is reasonable. To quote a comedian for serious purposes is funny indeed. There is nothing idealistic, about wanting a government to control the path of your life.
You say you are an atheist? That God does not exist, but if He did, then He is being replaced by money? All gods, my friend, in society are paper gods. Would you honestly rather be worshiping politicians? Worshiping wealthy aristocrats? For that is all you get with a leftist view. A human god? What makes the same creature whom created need, above that need? Are we to reestablish kings, and pharos?

Christmas was never established for Godly purposes in the first place. It was a pagan celebration, which aristocratic, so called "religious" men, forcefully adapted to give them selfish immortality. That is the nature of mankind. It can never be quenched, only vigilantly grasped.
Mankind is evil with all his good in between. Most of all as a society mankind is weak, and accessible to the temptations (if you will) of distractions. No matter what system you have in place, there is going to be corruption, injustice, and self-indulgence. The saying "pick the lesser of two evils," is the best we can do as a whole. As Stalin, and Mao, have shown us. When attempting to implement an ideology which goes against human nature (i.e. utopianism [communism]) you defeat that ideology through the means you were first fighting against.

I’m one of those rare creatures whom views Plato’s "The Republic" as a jest in the face of socialites (i.e. the modern left). Like Plato I am a true Liberal. Not the American version, which in all sense is truly "conservative" (i.e. closed minded). I believe in my self. I believe in individualism. I know that governments were established to control the weak of society. I am not weak, so no matter what government’s ideology, or philosophy, amounts to I will not simply follow. By the way, Religion mounts the same purpose, to control the weak.
"The Republic" is a satire, where Socrates uses the "communistic" view points of the surrounding men to show them how irrational a utopia is. Plato is being facetious on this point of social limitation through governmental control. It is one long discussion, which simply implies that the human Will must have the evil with its good. Bringing the conclusion that the only system that works, is one of limited government, and limited control (i.e. a Republic).

Trade is the truest and oldest god us humans have. Whether we are trading shiny rocks for shinier rocks, or lumber for painted paper, without trade you have nothing. Survival of the fittest is a very emotionally disturbing realization, but is the facts of existence. You can’t avoid them. Tearing down a system that is closer to human nature, and then replacing it with a utopianism government; uncorrupt, undemanding, completely justful, and selflessly humble, is utterly irrational. It has never, it can never, and will never exist.

Nothing in reality equals the true visions we posses. We strive to get as close to them as possible. However, as human beings – flawed in all we are – we must maintain a reasonable outlook upon how we strive towards our goals. Hermann Hesse wrote, “Happiness is a how, not a what; a talent, not an object.” Which basically is stating that the individual is, above all, the true means to guide oneself. Once you allow the individual to be dominated by idealism your endeavor becomes zealous, chaotic, and emotional.

I am thirty-one years of age. I have moved across this world. I have seen war, famine, and revolution. Most of all, before this, I was an idealist as you are. My friend be an individualist not an idealist. In the long run you will learn that idealism is a fabrication, a fashion show for counter culture. You are simply following the marching orders of the modern play writes.
That makes you part of the weak. Which makes your idealism, nothing more than the shadow of hypocrisy.

As for the left wanting less government, no they do not. They say they do, but most dictators would not openly tell you they wish to oppress you. In today’s America we establish politics as a direction, when all it is, is an idea. The right is just as guilty as the left in their hunger for power.
However, they only gain that which we give them. Take it away! Be a cynic towards them both. A true liberal is just that, a cynic!

-- posted by tyrtaeus

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» animalspirit - No cause for Pandora

...Yes, Doctor, the hypnotic state is in full effect...I am fully responsive to all suggestions...

I am tired... so tired, of politics attempting to appease these terrorists. These, less than human beings, burrowing their way into the mainstream through the education system - through the emotions of social generosity.

...Those under the banner of generosity are less than human...Generosity is defined as Liberalism... The syllogism is internalized...Proceed with the programming...

We should have been aware of such false prophets when the Bolsheviks attempted to implement Marx’s moronic philosophy. A philosophy which is still attempted today in impoverished nations around the world. A philosophy which is slithering its way across the air waves of this nation.

...Bolshevik...Must surf cable to ascertain what channel Harpo is on these days...

The reaction is one of surprise, and confusion. ‘Could this be - one day - the one to burn down my house, my business, in some fanatic protest? My own daughter, or son?’ You carry that fear with you constantly.

...The senseless fear is for the planet; the sane fear is of the Volvo driver...

Battle lines are not drawn between ideologies any more. Rather, the line is drawn between reason, and complete schizophrenia. These children are growing up believing that chicken little is in fact themselves.

The Sky.
Is.
Falling.

A dire straits

[cue music]

...I want my...I want my...I want my MTV...

is brewing within our own house holds

[cue music]

...The best part of waking up...

Through intimidation, and blatant instigation, powerful groups - whom once were small charities - have created an under growth of civil war. Catapulting brother against brother, Fathers against sons, Mothers against daughters.

...Harper Valley: The Wonder Years...

So, who are these creatures of malignancy infestation? Where did they come from? What are their truest of intentions? How do we confront this new fear?

...We face it head on by heading for the nearest Volvo dealer...

Rising from my leather couch, in a fog of elegant cigar aroma, I drifted weirdly to bed.

...As opposed to drifting weirdly from paragraph to paragraph...

Their voices rang out, and the sound was just as stereo typical as their clothing. The voices of teenagers, whom had no rational thought what so ever bouncing in their heads. It was pure, unadulterated, ignorance and fear. They wined, and pouted. Not even their foolish masks could hide the sound of such incompetence.

...Yes...must...be...the voices...

Strapped to the front of the desk was a sign that read, "Save the Earth, Save Mankind... Destroy the Imperial Machine!"

...Destroy the Imperial...And the Edsel...Must save the Volvo...

They demanded that we - the half asleep viewers - "...open our eyes and see the disgusting truth about big business in Georgia." Like petty amoral lawyers, they distorted the facts to solidify their case.

...We oppose distorting facts to solidify a case...

Granting mankind the abilities of gods, while declaring us nothing more than prehistoric amebas. As my room mate, and I, laughed a small seed of reason began to over take my humor. My smile distorted into a frown. My brow turned inward. I grew quiet, and starred deep into the white eyes of these simpletons. As I had long ago in that church pew, I became clear on the underbelly of meaning here. The promotion of fear, through the intimidation of Armageddon.

...The promotion of fear, through the intimidation of standard passenger airbags...

Then in a brief second, It all came to me. How we [civilization]...

...We arrogate to our own views the imprimatur of "civilization"...

sat around these modern times and passed such beings off as radicals who’s good intentions went a bit out to far left field. ‘They would soon enough return to reason, and balance their views."

...We oppose unbalanced views....

So we tell ourselves.

...So we talk to ourselves...

In the mean time, such fascist groups like; The Sierra Club, Green Peace, Audubon Institute, Circle of Life Foundation, Earthhope Action Network, National Organization of Women, National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, and Earthjustice Legal Defense Fund, attack and chip away at our conscience logic.

...Must alert French Intelligence...Some have gotten away...

After all, we see the Ku Klux Klan, and Nazis, for what they really are. Why is it so difficult to see all these other similar cliques as well?

...Not all of us hear the voices...

These are not careers of Earth and humanity! They are axial opponents to a way of life. America’s founding ideology is deemed flagitious. New "isms" created to harm, corrupt, and misguide reason. Such terms as feminism, liberalism, and environmentalism, and diversity are all camouflage terms for known failures as socialism, anarchy, and communism.

...The "lying fascists" whose arguments that preserving the environment for coming generations is an act of love to those succeeding generations must not get way with it...How can they once we've cut down all the trees?...

For instance, if a liberal was to admit they were a socialist, then the majority of Americans would shun them. Banish the liberal from ever having influence over their children.

...Must save them from the subversive scourges of those nitpicking Earthlings...

...No need to wait for confession...Must go back in time prior to the "Founding Fathers" who led us down the road to the road to serfdom...Must not "Cotton"s to such details as if it really "Mather"s if they confess!

...Must start gathering the wood - once we've chopped down enough - as soon as possible...

However, to claim to be a liberal, is to imply an "open mind." One who cares for social justice. Therefore, they are aloud to come into our schools, and homes, and teach our children to hate their parents. To hate other ideologies.

...We oppose hating "other ideologies"...

Just as Hitler taught German children, that Jews were less than human. So do these modern fascist teach ours that Constitutioanlist (i.e. founding fathers, or conservatives) are less than human.

...We oppose teaching that others are less than human...[cough]

These bigots came from the bowls of fear.

...That image broke me out of the trance! The Tidy Bowl man! Another American institution waylaid! Can 2000 Flushes be far behind (so to speak)!?!

Fear of displacement.

I'll say.

The inability to grasp reality.

No shit.

They can not see that life is fickle. There will be winners, and losers. Yet, to them, everyone can be winners. A social utopia of harmony. They point to the past as an example for both what not to do, and to do. This is incomprehensible.

It must be incomprehensible for those to broadbrush mainstream mixed economy advocacy with cheerleading for command economies...for those who don't understand that freedom is endangered when truly democratic governments are weak, not when they are strong...

The best of human nature only on display? While behind the cameras, and pretty news casters, suffering and turmoil.

"Ooooooooooooh, Mister Graaaaaaaaant!"

People such as I, would be - are - declared injurious under such a regime. God would be dead for real! Still, it fascinates me so, many would stand by agreeing with the illusion, while they are striped from any free thought.

Free-thinking or free-basing?

[cue music]

"...so you think that it's a Grand Illusion, but deep inside we're all the same.."

Okay, I'll get back under...I am getting sleepy, veerry. sleepy...I am now fully responsive to suggestions...

I have heard people condemn Timothy McVeigh, while supporting the pillaging of farm lands to save a fish? How can someone honestly separate physical murder, and the murder of hope? Which can you honestly say is the worst of the two? I see no difference.

...The social sciences, and the environmental movement, are nothing more than a cover for ideological hatred. A constant power struggle for control over the advancement of mankind.

...The social sciences have done nothing for the advancement of mankind...

Rather, it is the sea monsters returning to flatten the Earth once more. Plus, drive us all of the edge of the universe.

...May God - and Volvo - protect us with standard airbags...

In whole, a farce. Something for empty souls to claim shallow heroism. This is the truth behind the dream. It is also a dream that holds the truth.

"Yes, Dr. Kaku. We're still a Type Zero civilization."

Russ Hicks

And he'll kill you if he can -
he's the animal of man.

Roger Miller

-- posted by animalspirit

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