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A Sermon For Richard
This archived discussion is "read only". « Previous 1 2 3 Next » » Pinky102 - Cardinal Torquemada In response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Galatians 5:1 posted by RichardSpeaks:I wasn't sure I had any of his name spelled correctly. For those not familiar with the scenario, Jesus had been on the hill side in Spain with people who were being miraculously affected by his presence. The cardinal noticed it and had him arrested and put in his dungeon. Torquemada visited the cell and harangued Jesus in a tirade against the Liberty Jesus offered. Jesus never says a word, just sits there and lets Torquemada berate him endlessly. I think Dostoyevski has put the Gospel in perspective more than any preacher or evangelist I have ever heard. Being a Christian is all about being set free from the rules of others; but, at the same time, the individual is made to be responsible for whatever comes of it. We have a responsibility to help each other deal with our liberty. Instead, organized religion seems to cut right on past that and goes into making the people free from the responsibility of being at liberty. But, those who are at liberty are the ones who truly get to experience their true existence in Christ just as it is promised. We don't hear the truth very often and it is therefore difficult to articulate. Apparently, New Thought seems more inclined to allow such discussions in its ranks. -- posted by Pinky102 » sacred_insights - Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Galatians 5:1 In response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Galatians 5:1 posted by RichardSpeaks:... most people cannot deal with that kind of freedom. Hence, yokes of the church. They served, and serve, well, those who must remain captive. And most who call themselves Christian are indeed captive. . .and afraid. Never quite sure of their salvation. Oh, I know that there are a few who are certain, but many, perhaps millions, are not so certain. (They would never admit it, though.) They are the ones who shun personal responsibility. And misinterpret Bible passages. Perhaps these are the same ones who do not understand the concept of Salvation as you explained in the other thread? Perhaps these folks are more numerous than the Christians who do live according to and within the concepts they accept? I donno if I am right but there seems to be a problem with communicating the Christian message if so many are so afraid and confused... What do you think? And do you think there is any particular denomination that has got it right? Seems to me to be a complicated message compared to Spiritualism. For Spiritualists Personal Responsibility belongs to everyone. It is our fifth principle and based on God's Natural Law of Cause and Effect. As such, there is no worry about concepts such as Salvation or Original Sin to confuse the issue.... That said I guess that is a matter of point of view and experience. Cat -- posted by sacred_insights » sacred_insights - Re: Cardinal Torquemada In response to Cardinal Torquemada posted by Pinky102:Being a Christian is all about being set free from the rules of others; but, at the same time, the individual is made to be responsible for whatever comes of it. And so the rules Christians live by then are what if not those set out by their church/denomination according to their interpretation of the bible? Just curious... We have a responsibility to help each other deal with our liberty. Instead, organized religion seems to cut right on past that and goes into making the people free from the responsibility of being at liberty. But, those who are at liberty are the ones who truly get to experience their true existence in Christ just as it is promised. I am not sure I get what you mean here... I think it is your repeated use of liberty that has me confused. Can you explain it a different way? Cat -- posted by sacred_insights » Pinky102 - Re: Re: Cardinal Torquemada In response to Re: Cardinal Torquemada posted by sacred_insights:The Grand Inquisitor is a story within the greater story of The Brothers Karamozov. One of the brothers is telling the story. The Cardinal (the Grand Inquisitor of the Spanish Inquisition) has Jesus captive and is telling Jesus how wrong he was to set human beings free from the yoke of bondage to the laws of the priesthood. Jesus just sits there listening. Torquemada accuses Jesus of causing all the problems of humanity by making people responsible for their own behavior. He tells Jesus that the people would starve if it weren't for the church and the priests who are the true saviors who bear the sins of mankind. It's too long a story to tell here but it is very much worth the read. It would take some dialogue to explain it here. Perhaps Richard could add to the explanation. -- posted by Pinky102 » sacred_insights - Re: Re: Re: Cardinal Torquemada In response to Re: Re: Cardinal Torquemada posted by Pinky102:Thanks for the background on the story. I would like more details if Richard would like to add them. We have a responsibility to help each other deal with our liberty. Instead, organized religion seems to cut right on past that and goes into making the people free from the responsibility of being at liberty. But, those who are at liberty are the ones who truly get to experience their true existence in Christ just as it is promised. I am still not sure what you are trying to say in this paragraph. Am I missing something? How are we supposed to help each other deal with our liberty? And what do you mean by "organized religion seems to cut right on past that and goes into making the people free from the responsibility of being at liberty"? And also what do you mean by "those who are at liberty are the ones who truly get to experience their true existence in Christ just as it is promised"? Maybe if we got out of abstract concepts and into practical concrete examples I would better understand your thoughts as presented here. Cat -- posted by sacred_insights » RichardSpeaks - Re: Re: Re: Re: Cardinal Torquemada In response to sacred insights and Pinky102Enough with the Torquemada story. The whole point is that the Church is to be the great layer down of law for people to follow, lest they stray off the path and die, physically and spiritually. Jesus said basically that we are under the law of cause and effect. That's what holds the universe together. You might call it God's Love. What we do brings consequences. No escaping it. It works in nature, it works in us. In order to be free from the law of cause and effect, you have to die. And then, I'm not sure we escape it. No matter what your religious beliefs, you are under the Law of Cause and Effect. Clear so far? OK. Jesus said a lot of things about coming out from under the penalty of sin. But remember, his words were spoken BEFORE THE FACT. That is, the fact of the cross and resurrection. Many folks forget that. Jesus spoke from the position in the Law of Cause and Effect. He was a Jew speaking of the oppression of the Levitical Law. When he died, his death did not free us from the Law of Cause and Effect. It freed us from the Levitical law. Have you ever taken the time to read through the 600 or so Levitical laws? Do it some time on a rainy afternoon and you'll know what Jesus was talking about. He knew that one could never live up to that law. His death and resurrection freed us from that kind of law. Making sense yet? To simplify the whole thing, it comes down to this: the law of the universe is cause and effect. The Levitical law is man made law claiming to be God made law. Jesus knew the difference. He said it was not necessary to try to please God. You cannot. (We'll take up why in another discussion sometime.) God in Scripture wants a reconciliation. He sends Himself to earth as Jesus. He takes upon himself the sin of the world i.e. disobedience. He takes that sin to the grave, to be remembered no more. The Levitical Law is now dead and buried. But we are still bound by the Law of Cause and Effect. That is the law that keeps us responsible; it carries it's own consequences. Not punishment, consequences, depending upon how we use and apply it. And we can use it to our own good, as well as to the good of the world. Or to the detriment of both. It's our choice. It's called Freedom. Not abandon. Get the difference? But the entire world is free from the judgment of Levitical Law. There will be no hell for anyone. Hell only applied to Levitical Law, not the Law of Cause and Effect, the only law we are now under. And good thing, too. Hope this isn't too much. -- posted by RichardSpeaks » sacred_insights - Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Cardinal Torquemada In response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Cardinal Torquemada posted by RichardSpeaks:Enough with the Torquemada story. The whole point is that the Church is to be the great layer down of law for people to follow, lest they stray off the path and die, physically and spiritually. Jesus said basically that we are under the law of cause and effect. That's what holds the universe together. You might call it God's Love. What we do brings consequences. No escaping it. It works in nature, it works in us. In order to be free from the law of cause and effect, you have to die. And then, I'm not sure we escape it. No matter what your religious beliefs, you are under the Law of Cause and Effect. Clear so far? Yep I totally understand that and agree with you here. OK. Jesus said a lot of things about coming out from under the penalty of sin. But remember, his words were spoken BEFORE THE FACT. That is, the fact of the cross and resurrection. Many folks forget that. Jesus spoke from the position in the Law of Cause and Effect. He was a Jew speaking of the oppression of the Levitical Law. When he died, his death did not free us from the Law of Cause and Effect. It freed us from the Levitical law. Have you ever taken the time to read through the 600 or so Levitical laws? Do it some time on a rainy afternoon and you'll know what Jesus was talking about. He knew that one could never live up to that law. His death and resurrection freed us from that kind of law. Making sense yet? Well I understand that he was talking about the OT laws and that he was speaking before his death. But I do not understand how his death on the cross and resurrection freed us from that kind of law. To be honest, I just see him as a political scapegoat goat of his time. In my view he might have been a wonderful preacher/teacher, healer and medium but he is not God in the conventional Christian meaning of the idea and I don't think he ever claimed to be. To simplify the whole thing, it comes down to this: the law of the universe is cause and effect. The Levitical law is man made law claiming to be God made law. Jesus knew the difference. He said it was not necessary to try to please God. You cannot. (We'll take up why in another discussion sometime.) God in Scripture wants a reconciliation. He sends Himself to earth as Jesus. He takes upon himself the sin of the world i.e. disobedience. He takes that sin to the grave, to be remembered no more. The Levitical Law is now dead and buried. But we are still bound by the Law of Cause and Effect. That is the law that keeps us responsible; it carries it's own consequences. Not punishment, consequences, depending upon how we use and apply it. And we can use it to our own good, as well as to the good of the world. Or to the detriment of both. It's our choice. It's called Freedom. Not abandon. Get the difference? But the entire world is free from the judgment of Levitical Law. There will be no hell for anyone. Hell only applied to Levitical Law, not the Law of Cause and Effect, the only law we are now under. And good thing, too. I get the difference between the Jewish man made laws and God's Natural Laws. I do also believe in this Natural Law of Cause and Effect and that Jesus though (like all of us will do) did go to the spirit world and so as spirit is alive today. In that sense he is part of God/the Universal energy that we are all a part of and will reconcile with when we die physically. How am I doing? LOL Cat -- posted by sacred_insights » Pinky102 - Torquemada In response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Cardinal Torquemada posted by RichardSpeaks:
Torquemada points out--to jesus--that he flubbed his opportunity when he rejected the temptations made to him by the Devil. He shows how that, if Jesus had given in, life would be much better for human kind. People cannot handle freedom--people need to have masters who lay down the law for them so they won't be responsible for their own decisions. Jesus makes people responsible while the church removes their responsibility. This is the key area of the diatribe laid down by the cardinal. The priest puts himself between god and humans when he absolves sin and lays down the penance to be paid. Perhaps it is in the abstract; but it shows how church doctrine takes the responsibility away from the individual for working out their own salvation and leaving it up to the church leaders who understand the things of the Bible so well. Give it a little thought. -- posted by Pinky102 » hawknut - Re: Theories of the Historical Jesus In response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Cardinal Torquemada posted by sacred_insights:... political scapegoat goat of his time... a wonderful preacher/teacher, healer and medium but he is not God in the conventional Christian meaning As an aside: You may be interested in this site about who Jesus was, according to a variety of authors/scholars. I found their thoughts fascinating, and have it in my 'favorites'. Note the the word 'theories' in the title. Theories of the Historical Jesus -- posted by hawknut » hawknut - Re: Personal Responsibility/Confession In response to Torquemada posted by Pinky102:I hope I'm not too far off topic, but I want to comment on: The priest puts himself between god and humans when he absolves sin and lays down the penance to be paid. The doctrine behind confession and absolution is that the priest is the earthly representative of God - just as Jesus was, and therefore Jesus' apostles have the same God-given authority. I think this is based on Paul's thoughts in 1 Corinthians 4:1 ("So then, men ought to regard us as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the secret things of God.") IMO, confession/absolution does address personal responsibility in that one examines his conscience, recognizes his own 'miss the mark' behavior, confesses it with his mouth, and accepts that he must do something to right the wrong. But I don't think praying three 'Hail Marys' as penance is appropriate retribution, nor is it any deterent to repeating the same offence. Many nonCatholics oppose this God-representative doctrine, again I think based on Paul's thought in 1 Timothy 2:5 ("For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,...") Yet at the same time, they contend that their pastors/ministers speak for God, or God speaks through them. Frankly, I don't see that much difference between the two doctrines. -- posted by hawknut « Previous 1 2 3 Next » Please follow the guidelines set forth in the Suite101 Posting Etiquette when adding to the discussion. |
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