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Is Armageddon Just Around The Corner?Read the article this discussion is about
This archived discussion is "read only". » _Boanerges_ - Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What a Load! In response to Re: Re: Re: Re: What a Load! posted by RichardSpeaks:Hi Richard... "deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus" (1Thessalonians 4:17 Latin Vulgate) rapiemur rapio rapui ratum: to seize, snatch, carry away. 1Thess :4:17 (KJV) caught up from English, translated from Greek is: (aJrpavzw) Harpazo: 1. to seize, carry off by force, 2. to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly, 3. to snatch out or away derivative of: (aiJrevw) Haireomai: to take for oneself, to prefer, choose, to choose by vote, elect to office probably. akin to: (ai[rw) a primary root [Airo] 1. to raise up, elevate, lift up, 2. to raise upwards, elevate, lift up: the hand, 3. to draw up: a fish 2. to take upon one's self and carry what has been raised up, to bear
-- posted by _Boanerges_ » RichardSpeaks - Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What a Load! In response to BoanergesMy friend, that scripture does not refer to a rapture. It refers to the second coming, which is different. Jesus said that if he goes away he will come again and receive the followers to himself. But I repeat and reiterate: nowhere in Scripture is the word 'rapture' mentioned. It's made up based on passages like the ones we're discussing which greater scholars than you and I have gone 'round and 'round about. There was never any rapture reference at all until the 19th century (maybe late 18th). What happened to it during the previous 17 or 18 centuries? Believers always accepted the idea that one day, Jesus would descend from heaven with a shout and shake up the world. He would set up his kingdom and judge the living and the dead, sending those who didn't accept him off to hell and keeping those who did with him. But no rapture where people are whisked away in the night, leaving the rest of us to wonder where the hell they went! At any rate, it's nothing I accept as truth. A god who would allow such a scenario is no god of mine. As I have also said before, I would rather spend eternity in hell that one moment with a god like the god of the Bible. He's a true monster. But he's not the truth anyway, so I don't have to concern myself about it. Have a great week! -- posted by RichardSpeaks » _Boanerges_ - Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What a Load! In response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What a Load! posted by RichardSpeaks:At any rate, it's nothing I accept as truth. obviously!... <------well, ttyl -- posted by _Boanerges_ » Pinky102 - The Rapture To be raptured is a personal experience.Imagine! It's a fall down on your face and grovelling on the ground experience of being struck dumb. What difference does it make how it happens? It's timing could only have any importance to the religionist who wants to prove how much more higher they are than you on their totem pole of holiness. Whenever I run across someone who asks me, "Hey, Pinky, are you pre-trib or a post-trib on the rapture?", I say, I think it's a personal thing that happens at death. Then, I just They also like to brag that they know how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Of course, they base their count on some biblical text. -- posted by Pinky102 » RichardSpeaks - Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What a Load! In response to BoanergesBottom line: you believe in a rapture; I don't. I don't believe in an outside god, I don't believe in the need for a saviour, I don't believe in the second coming, I don't believe in Armaggedon, I don't believe in any of that stuff. I believe this: The Kingdom of God is within you. (Lk 17:21) In Pinky's post, he says that the rapture is a personal experience. The word 'rapture' was coined around 1637 (English) and then led to 'enrapture' around 1742. The word means 'to be filled with delight,' not 'whisked away by Jesus.' It's an INNER experience. When we all begin to realize the significance of that, things will become much clearer. By the way, the English renderings of the Latin Vulgate do not follow it directly. There was much, shall we say, interpretation as the new editions came forth. And even the English renditions of the 16th, 17th, and 18th centuries are not exact to one another. And you have to admit, if everything was as clear as you want to believe it is, we would only have ONE church. And it would still be Catholic. I know, you'll say the Reformation was about politics more than religion, and you'd be right; nonetheless, it goes to show that mere humans have no real way of grasping cosmic truths. We are too selfish. -- posted by RichardSpeaks » RichardSpeaks - Re: The Rapture In response to Pinky102You'll enjoy this: Last evening, I saw a powerful expose' of one of evangelical Christianity's major icons, one Benny Hinn. You may have heard of him. I have followed (for critical purposes) his ministry for about 20 years (give or take) and before I left fundamentalism, I was a fan. But as I watched his growth and popularity over the years, something smelled fishy. I didn't know quite what. Oh, yeah. . .he was a faith healer. That should have clued me in right from the beginning. Well, last night one of the networks, I think NBC, looked into his finances, his so-called business expenses, which included $6000 a night Milan hotel rooms, and whether or not his so-called healings were legit. It was a great program. Not mean spirited at all, just exposing. The last time some network did one of these on him, he lost 20% of his income. It will be interesting to see how much he loses this time. The point? Fundamentalists are too willing to be led around by the nose. They allow themselves to become the easy targets of frauds and quacks. Fundamentalist Christianity is full of those frauds and quacks. I remember hearing about these kinds of exposures since I was a child. You'd think I would have come out of it years before I did. But I was a trusting fundamentalist, too. No more. I know that the Bible has been interpreted and translated too many times over the centuries to be anything even close to Ultimate Truth. And no one, especially the televangelists, has any kind of monopoly on Ultimate Truth. But I know this: because of the Rapture in my own heart, I recognize that there is but One Power, One Presence, and One Life and that Life is my life now. I exist only because the One Power exists. I am as much an aspect of It as It is the totality of All. No one, no thing, is lost. To be lost is to say that a part of the One is lost. Not possible. Ultimately, all is energy and energy is neither created nor destroyed. That's a scientific law that has deep spiritual implications. I believe that's what Jesus was referring to in Luke 17:21 (The Kindgom of God is within you.) Now, isn't that a load!!! But I believe it. Love to you all. -- posted by RichardSpeaks » Pinky102 - Being Lost In response to Re: The Rapture posted by RichardSpeaks:So, you say you have experienced some level of the rapture? And, yupper! That Benny Hinn is a big fraud. There are some Fundamentalist Evangelicals who are not taken in by him. Even so, it interesting how he is able to hold such rational discussions with many other televangelists on their fund raising shows. And, to me, that makes a point about everyone of them--the ones who work together anyway. You wrote, "No one, no thing, is lost. To be lost is to say that a part of the One is lost. Not possible." Respectfully, that's quite a generalized statement, I'm sure you agree. There are a lot of people who are lost; but, they cannot admit to it. They are afraid to own up to the fact that they are lost. Lost in the crowd of people with whom they relate. Lost in their career and lost in their intensity. Our entire culture is a culture of the lost in many ways. I don't see how you can say that "no one is lost". In fact, I see it as the key to understanding the Gospel Jesus brings to the world. A person has to lose their lostness before they can gain their own person. In this sense, Spinoza is credited with being the first person to practice what we have come to call secularism. He was discredited by the Rabbis and other religionists in the society of his day for being a secularist--a person who was crossing the ghetto line to associate with the Christians in Europe. Earlier, such a person was rejected by everyone--not just their own brand of those who knew all there was to know about God. Spinoza is known as the first Secular Jew. I can associate with that. Is there such a thing as a Secular Christian? I think many who profess Christianity are lost in their trumped up salvation which is based on playing out some role they find in reading and believing the Bible as a hand book. They need to be saved from their lostness. But, these are strange areas of inquiry into which we are discouraged from discovery. And, that is too bad for our edification. Otherwise, we might grow and develop a better understanding of life. Both sides want to shut us down. BTW, here's an interesting link:
P.S. Thinking of Benny Hinn reminds me of Benny Hill. ABC -- posted by Pinky102 » Pinky102 - The Link In response to Being Lost posted by Pinky102:That link, http://www.crvp.org/book/Series01/I-12/c... , makes a good subject for discussion. Anyone interested in exploring it? -- posted by Pinky102 » RichardSpeaks - Re: Re: Re: The Rapture In response to Pinky102Well, that was quick!! Let me explain something I think you'll understand: When I refer to the 'lost,' I am referring only to an eternal state, not a current, physical state. In such cases, many are lost in their own haze. Even so-called (and maybe especially) born again types are often in a haze about their own belief system. I have talked with those who say they don't know if they are really 'saved' or not. They don't feel good enough. I have to explain the whole plan of salvation to them again. And, those folks are the first to criticize, and dare I say, judge others, especially other Christians. But actually, when I say 'not lost' I mean this: no one is ever eternally separated from God, from Truth, from Reality. Anyone who is alive is alive forever, even though the flesh goes back to its source, the earth. Even then, it's not truly lost. It recycles. Dead flesh is also energy. It is not wasted. The universe is one big recycling bin. Secular Christianity seems like a contradiction in terms. Those who are born-again would say it can't happen. You are either dedicated to Christ, or you're not. No lukewarmness allowed. Even Jesus said he would spew the lukewarms out of his mouth. If you profess with your mouth, but don't completely believe in your heart, you are doomed. Period. Thank God I don't believe that anymore. And like Aristotle or Socrates (I am not certain which one) said, Those who think they know, know nothing; and those who know they know nothing really know. I guess I really know. -- posted by RichardSpeaks » Pinky102 - Never Alone In response to Re: Re: Re: The Rapture posted by RichardSpeaks:I tend toward going along with your line of thought here. Makes me think of this song: http://library.timelesstruths.org/music/... The idea of being lost in the sense of separation from God as an impossibility might be closer to the Gospel of Jesus than we think. He teaches us that it is "at hand" and that means we can reach out and touch it. I never thought of being a secular Christian until the last couple of days. Maybe yesterday? Anyway, it popped into my mind as I was responding to your prior post and whammo, I checked it out with my Yahoo search engine and that's where I found the link in my last post up above. I printed it out and have begun reading it. (8 pages in all). Exciting!! Change--remember that word? Fundamentalism teaches that the Bible is a closed book. No more changes in reality. It's all there in the book to be uncovered; but, nothing new is allowed. Fear! Awesome fear! Afraid of change. Have to have something that is always the same. Now you understand religionists. They're scared to death of change. How sad. -- posted by Pinky102 Please follow the guidelines set forth in the Suite101 Posting Etiquette when adding to the discussion. |
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so, dont be mad at me because I reject your meandering explaination, which is quite inriguing, but rathe rlong winded and so typical of the usual 'doctrines of men'. After all my friend, I am a Christian and the Bible declares the Rapture, in black and white, just and as Paul described and Jeromes copied, perfectly. You asked what verse that was? Well, that should be obvious! It is the same passage as quoted above from the latin Vulgate.
