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Is America Really Christian?Read the article this discussion is about
This archived discussion is "read only". « Previous 1 2 3 Next » » RichardSpeaks - Re: Honest Abe In response to hawknut:I am familiar with this, and other, quotes from not only Mr. Lincoln, but any number of American presidents, vice presidents, and in some cases, presidents' wives. It strikes me as interesting that in some cases, after making such statements, the presidents in question were often RE-elected. And, unless I miss my guess, no president was ever threatened with impeachment due to his religious beliefs. In fact, the one president I remember in my lifetime that came under fire for his beliefs was John Kennedy. He was Christian, Catholic to be sure, but Christian nonetheless. I was young at the time, but I remember what an uproar there was among fundamentalist and other conservative Protestant groups. I think they would rather have had an atheist in the White House than a Catholic. You'd have thought the country was going to collapse under the weight of it. But it didn't and here we are. Actually, the conservatives liked Kennedy after he got into office and were among the loudest grievers over his assassination. The US is a not a Christian nation. It is a free nation with constitutional guarantees for freedom of religion. And, thank God, 99% of the presidents have upheld that particular doctrine. -- posted by RichardSpeaks » hawknut - Re: Re: Honest Abe In response to Re: Honest Abe posted by RichardSpeaks:I think they would rather have had an atheist in the White House than a Catholic. You'd have thought the country was going to collapse under the weight of it. I remember well the panic that the Vatican would dictate US policies. This fear became very real again in this past election - and for very good reason... I'm sure you remember radical Catholics insisting the Vatican and local bishops bring sanctions against and/or excommunicate 48 politicians who didn't publicly speak out against abortion, same-sex unions, etc. Kerry came under fire, remember? See http://www.cathfam.org/cfexcom/Excom.html Another Abe quote.... "I care not much for a man's religion whose dog and cat are not the better for it." -- posted by hawknut » Pinky102 - Re: Re: Honest Abe In response to Re: Honest Abe posted by RichardSpeaks:"I remember what an uproar there was among fundamentalist and other conservative Protestant groups." As do I, but I was a father with young children at the time and I attended a Bible Baptist church. My family and every other person in the church was against Kenedy being elected as the word was that he would be subservient to Rome. On the day after he was nominated, a co-worker who knew my anti-catholic stance said to me, "Well, the Pope's navy is in Boston Harbor." After JFK was in office, I changed my position and decided he was one of our best presidents. And, I look back at that statement about the Pope's navy with a laugh. It's funny now, but so serious then.
Time wounds all heals. -- posted by Pinky102 » RichardSpeaks - Re: Re: Re: Honest Abe In response to Pinky102 and the rest:Again, I would like to recommend a good piece of reading: Free Thinkers - The History of America's Secularism, by Susan Jacoby. From the back cover: . . ."America. . .the first government in the world founded not on the authority of religion but on the bedrock of human reason." I am definitely not anti-religion. But I am anti-religious government. Look at the Middle East and until recently, parts of eastern Europe. Religion separates, it does not join, except for elitist circles. All through my New Thought writing you will see examples of that. Even New Thought adherents can get a bit elitist at times. We do our best to watch that very closely. Taking a stand against a dogma can easily turn into taking a stand against people. We all have to be aware of that and make the concerted effort to quit doing it. Tain't easy, but necessary. Otherwise, the world is, indeed, doomed. And secular, totalitarian goverments are no answer, right??? Comments? -- posted by RichardSpeaks » Pinky102 - Re: Re: Re: Re: Honest Abe In response to Re: Re: Re: Honest Abe posted by RichardSpeaks:Sometimes we do things with little more agenda than to set things straight. I'm against censorship, as you have seen. As far as religion is concerned, I guess I don't like it. My complaint is with people who work hard at imposing their religious convictions on others. I don't think it would be right for me to go around trying to impose my liberal beliefs on others. I express them, but I don't expect they should carry the effect of law. I tend to not like those people who impose their prejudices and beliefs on others. I can certainly care for them without liking them. I don't know about any formalized formula for liberal thought. In fact, the very use of liberal as an adjective supercedes the idea of formulated thinking--doesn't it. It means, to me, that persons have the right to seek their own understandings and to carry them out with the one restriction that they not hurt any other person along the way. I do have the right to question the way others think and act and they have the right to question the way I think and act. Live and let live, is an old Yankee American motto. You'll find I am a very liberal person. My reasoning is, who am I to impose my thoughts and ideas on anyone else. I don't want it done to me and I know others don't want me to do it to them. I don't like to be treated in an unjust way and I don't like to see others unjustly treated. I don't believe in being silent in the face of injustice. As a Christian, I see that I am required to seek justice in every case. Not just for me, but for all people no matter how undesireable. The name, Christian, carries with it that one is a follower of Christ. To follow Christ is to seek justice. Rape is the imposition of one's will on the being of an other person--taking authority for self determination against the will of the other--sexual or otherwise. -- posted by Pinky102 » RichardSpeaks - Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Honest Abe In response to Pinky102There are those who say that "liberal" and "Christian" are mutually exclusive terms. But it's not up to me to make that determination. Just thought you'd like to know that. "Live and let live" sounds good in theory, but it hardly ever works in a civilized society. That's why there are laws, even in a democracy, and perhaps especially in a democracy. These laws are intended to protect the civil rights of the individuals within that society. Religious law rarely addresses that. I can't think of a single truly democratic major western religion. However, Buddhism and Taoism in the east come close. They recognize the need for social coherence as well as the need for individual spiritual growth. The two can be harmonious, if the society will let them. But, greed, power hunger, and other such things tend to interfere. Hence the need for justice. I do take issue with you on one very salient point. You said, "To follow Christ is to seek justice." But didn't Jesus say, "Love one another, even as I have loved you"? And "Vengeance is mine"? He was the ultimate justice. He loved humanity into heaven through his own sacrifice. He took upon himself the sin of the world (original sin) and left it in the grave. Now, here's the part that Christians don't like: we play no part in salvation; only Jesus does. We are saved whether we believe it or not. If we have to make a choice in order to be saved, then the power of salvation rests in our own hands. It does not. The world is saved, from Adam to the last Zen master, because of what Jesus did, not because of our belief, no matter what Paul, or even Jesus himself supposedly says in scripture. That's love; that's justice. Too bad I don't believe a word of that. -- posted by RichardSpeaks » Pinky102 - Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Honest Abe In response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Honest Abe posted by RichardSpeaks:I had written, "To follow Christ is to seek Justice", and you responded with, "Now, here's the part that Christians don't like: we play no part in salvation; only Jesus does. We are saved whether we believe it or not. If we have to make a choice in order to be saved, then the power of salvation rests in our own hands. It does not. The world is saved, from Adam to the last Zen master, because of what Jesus did, not because of our belief, no matter what Paul, or even Jesus himself supposedly says in scripture. That's love; that's justice. Too bad I don't believe a word of that." Your response leaves me confused and asking the question, "What part of it don't you believe?". You do seem to act as though justice might be a valid pursuit. -- posted by Pinky102 » RichardSpeaks - Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Honest Abe In response to Pinky102Justice, per se, is a valid pursuit. Sometimes, though, the fine line between justice and vengeance blurs. If I don't believe the way I'm "supposed to," i.e. the so-called born again belief, then I end up in hell. That's not justice, that's egotistical vengeance. The Bible says that God is a jealous god and that should be enough to drive off anyone. But it does not. There you have it. I don't believe any of the Christian doctrine. The reason I am so familiar with it is because, up until I was 31, I was a devoted fundamentalist Christian. Then, by invitation, I attended a New Thought church in Denver. I had no idea what to expect. But, I have never been the same, and I have never looked back. There are several articles in this topic where I go into more detail, if you're interested. Have a good weekend. -- posted by RichardSpeaks » Pinky102 - Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Honest Abe In response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Honest Abe posted by RichardSpeaks:"There are several articles in this topic where I go into more detail, if you're interested." HOw about some links? -- posted by Pinky102 » RichardSpeaks - Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Honest Abe In response to Pinky102Forgive me. I wasn't clear. The articles are here, in this New Thought category, this topic. Just go to New Thought and you'll see all the articles listed that I have written. Here is the easy way to get there: www.Suite101.com/welcome.cfm/16759 -- posted by RichardSpeaks « Previous 1 2 3 Next » Please follow the guidelines set forth in the Suite101 Posting Etiquette when adding to the discussion. |
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