CELC Conference

Top 2. Jul 18, 2003 1:03 AM

» H2O - Re: How about the Lutheran world conference?

In response to message posted by biogardener:

I believe the World Lutheran Conference is with the more liberal Lutheran church bodies. The CELC follows the theologically conservative viewpoints and traditions of Walther and the Synodical Conference.

-- posted by H2O

Top 3. Jul 19, 2003 10:22 PM

» biogardener - All synods

From what has been broadcast on the daily German program and from what I have read in the media, all Lutheran synods take part in the world conference, and it happens once every 8 years.

Today's paper listed some of the interesting items which will be on display, including some of Luther's original writings and a first Gutenberg Bible. I am particularly looking forward to the German sessions. I will report on the congress later. The first session will be on July 22.

-- posted by biogardener

Top 4. Jul 20, 2003 6:10 PM

» H2O - Re: All synods

In response to message posted by biogardener:

I would have to see the agenda for the conference. I general, the more conservative elements don't participate. It's akin to the recent "Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification" which was touted as "Lutheran and Catholic unification." Trouble is, some Lutherans still see Rome defining justification in their terms which is what Luther had always had a problem with.

As I continue my look at the synods in US history the split between conservatives and liberals will be spelled out.

-- posted by H2O

Top 5. Jul 31, 2003 4:15 AM

» biogardener - wrongly advertized

I got my information about the conference from the announcements in the German radio program, and they were not quite correct. The announcer for the program is not a church-going person, so he did not quite understand what was going on.

Here are some thoughts from me about the conference.

For me, the most inspiring aspect of the conference was the exhibition of documents of Luther's time, including a Gutenberg Bible, richly decorated in colorized wood block prints and many photocopies of writings of the time in German and Latin.
Much ado was made about the recent union of the Lutheran and Anglican churches, and the Anglican Primate, head of the Anglican church in Canada, took part in the opening program. I don't see why they are so proud of that union when they cannot find any connection to the other North American Lutheran synods. The Anglicans may have many differences among their churches, but they are all governed by the same synod. That cooperation between the Lutherans and Anglicans seemed to be more in form than in actuality, because the Primate appeared to be the only Anglican who made an appearance at the conference.
The Canadian government generated a great deal of negative publicity, because they refused entry visas to delegates from third world countries with the explanation that they could not be trusted to return to their countries. Some of those decisions were reversed on account of public pressure. The delegates from India, for example, received their visas, but when they arrived at the airport, they were turned back with the explanation that their visas had been withdrawn again. The whole country is outraged by these decisions of Canada Immigration.
The conference had rented the large facilities of the Winnipeg Convention Centre based on the expected number of visitors. On account of few third world country delegates being allowed in the country, the place unfortunately was poorly attended, and a much less expensive venue would have sufficed.

Today is the last day of the conference, and I am going to see if the bookstore is still open. Then I can still take advantage of the 40% off sale of many items.

-- posted by biogardener

Top 6. Jul 31, 2003 8:16 AM

» H2O - Re: wrongly advertized

In response to message posted by biogardener:

Traute:

Thank you for your observations!

You wrote:
"That cooperation between the Lutherans and Anglicans seemed to be more in form than in actuality, because the Primate appeared to be the only Anglican who made an appearance at the conference."

And I would agree. Many mergers within United States Lutheranism have been more form than actuality. Many congregations split off from ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran Church in America) because doctrinal differences were not addressed. And Lutheran differences go way back to Melanchthon, who changed the text of the Augsburg Confession (many older churches still bear "U.A.C." on their cornerstone, which stands for "Unaltered Augsburg Confession"). You see, Melanchthon saw nothing wrong with joining Calvinists and Zwinglians in what *appeared* to be a political alliance against Rome. Luther felt such a union sent the wrong message (and, in fact, opposed the statements in Augsburg where the Lutherans stated what they did and did not believe). As for North American Lutheran unity, I don't think you can fault the ELCA and the Lutheran World Council on that. But I don't think you can blame the conservative synods for "marking and avoiding" those teach contrary to what we are taught (St. Paul's words). C. F. W. Walther of the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod sought to do just that--but had to draw the line when he felt many synods did not preach, teach, confess, and practice what SCripture taught. It's a balancing act.

You wrote:
"Today is the last day of the conference, and I am going to see if the bookstore is still open. Then I can still take advantage of the 40% off sale of many items."

Traute, I wish you would have told me sooner! I'd have wired you American dollars for any good books they had! Alas, I guess I'll have to make do with getting review copies from AugsburgFortress.

john

-- posted by H2O

Top 7. Aug 2, 2003 11:45 PM

» biogardener - Not books

I don't think that the books were on sale. Only jewelry and artifacts from various countries were.

About unity, let me share a few more observations. My best experience as an organist and choir director in any church was in a Lutheran church, and I don't even know to which synod it belonged. I only know that it was a Charismatic church, and the reason they wanted me as music director was because I can handle the traditional music as well as the modern music which may not be written down.

That Lutheran church was different from any other in Winnipeg at the time, because of the Charismatic direction. The bishop did not interfere, because the church was growing and healthy. Then the bishop died, and his successor got rid of the pastor who then joined the Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada, and he put in a woman pastor who believed that "the miracle of the incarnation is that God used the vehicle of sex to bring his greatest gift to humanity." That is literally what she said. I wrote it down as she said it, and no one believed that she could possibly have said it.

Anyway, she killed the fastest-growing Lutheran church in Winnipeg. They now have no organist and no pastor, because they can't afford to pay either.

I have also helped with the music in several Anglican churches, and am therefore familiar with the great variation in doctrine in the teaching. Some of them are practically Roman Catholic, having statues to Mary and saying prayers to saints. Others are practically Pentecostal, and most of them are middle-of-the-road, but all are governed by the same synod. No one at the synod level cares what is being taught, as long as the synod gets to collect the dues from every church. They have severe financial problems, because they have to pay the judgments against them from the sexual abuse victims in their residential schools and in their summer camps. And they don't have to excuse of celibacy for their priest. They are all allowed to marry.

So in the Anglican church it is all about financial survival. Never mind doctrine.

To see any Lutheran synod join an organization which has no regard for doctrine is most disappointing to me as well as to all the Lutheran friends whom I met at the conference and whom I asked about it.

The United Church of Canada is also a mishmush of other churches which all ceased to exist. That is now the largest Protestant church in Canada, but unfortunately, they joined on the lowest common denominator, and as a result, they don't believe anything any more, not in the authority of the Bible, not in the virgin birth, and not in the sanctity of marriage. I see it as a social organization rather than as a church. Here is a link to how it came about.

-- posted by biogardener