Who Are The Black Irish?
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- Carro51592
- ArtSept05
- Milesian
- jrfromcv
- SherryMac
- ArpadGododdin
- CahillWhale
- Blarni
- LiamO
- zinziberi
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» Carro51592 - Re: Black Irish
In response to message posted by Rae9381:I have always heard it called black-eyed Irish in my family. It wasnt really important to me until i came down with a chronic anemia problem. It wasnt responding to treatment as fast as it should have and i was sent to a Hematologist which is a blood disease specialist. As soon as he walked into the room he asked me if i knew my heritage and i said yeah i'm irish both sides. He kept insisting i have Mediterranean blood in me because i have almost black hair and a green-brown color eyes. He says i think i know what this is. He went out and looked at my blood under a microscope and comes back in and said ok thats what i thought smiling. He said i was a carrier of the Thalassemia gene because of the Mediterranean bloodline and he detected it as soon as he looked at the bloodcells. He proceeds to tell me the story of the Spanish Armadas that sunk off the coast of Ireland one winter and the men making it back to shore and taking up with the Irish women and staying there. I was like sitting there with my mouth hanging open amazed by what he had just told me because three of my grandparents had traced their families back to the 1600's in Ireland but my fathers side could never be traced back entirely tho they were Irish due to the early death of his father and the fact that they lost touch with his family afterward. His side were black haired, brown eyed and olive skinned so thats where it came from....lol. I do believe that story the Dr. told me because hes one of the top specialists in the country so i dont think he'd be passing that story around if in fact it werent true and he hadnt done his research into it. Ok Thanks for reading ....i just wanted to get my story in here....lol. Have a great day everyone =)
-- posted by Carro51592
» ArtSept05 - Re: Re: Black Irish
In response to Re: Black Irish posted by Carro51592:Now I'm a blue eyed blond Irishman - 7 of 8 great granparents are Irish born. The 8th is - shutter - English. Anyway one of the seven has a last name of DIAS or DYAS - Now tell me, is that Spanish/Portuguese or what.
-- posted by ArtSept05
» Milesian - Black Irish - Anthropological view
It should be noted that the ancient Irish legends detail most of the invadingtribes as coming originally from South Eastern Europe - Milesians (Gaels) from
Scythia, Fir Bolg (possibly from "Men of Bolgios" rather than "Bag men" of some
other faulty translation) from Greece, Picts from Thracia.
Most likely these were eastward moving Celts of the Hallstatt era, who moved
down through the Balkans before migrating west along the Mediterranian, up
through Iberia and finally to Ireland. Galicia and Northern Portugal still
retain some culturaly Celtic heritage, and likely Gaelic culture came from here
with Q-Celtic speakers.
The Celts themselves were not a homogenous people. Likely they incorporated all
different phenotypes as they expanded. The anthropologist, Coon, theorised that
the phenotype of the original Celts (which he called "Keltic Nordic") was a
mixture of Hallstatt Nordic + Dinaric. Others believe they were originally
Alpines. In any case, the classic pale-skinned, dark-haired, light-eyed Irish
type is a native type to Ireland and is considered to be Pre-Celtic in origin,called "North Atlantid" in Lundman's
taxonomy.
Anthropologists are divided on it's origin. It is a phenotype that probably
arrived in Ireland sometime between the Neolithic and the Bronze age. Some
group it as a branch of the Mediterranid, others with the Nordic.
It is certainly gracialised and also doliocephalic like both the
Westmeditteranid and Skando-Nordid types. Some theorise the Skando-Nordid and
westmediterranid are related to each other as well, the former possibly an
altered version of the latter with depigmentation occuring possibly by
intermixing with finnic peoples to the north-east. The North-Atlantid may
therefore be an intermediate phenotype in which skin and eye depigmentation is
well advanced while hair depigmentation is not. Morphologically speaking, the
North Atlantid resembles most a brunette Skando-Nordid
There is another type in Ireland, smaller in stature and more robust and stocky
than the tall, slender North Atlantid. It differs not only in stature and
build, but it also tends towards Brachycephaly and the eyes are usally dark
rather than light. This type is an ancient type called "Paleo-atlantid". It may
be related to the "Tydal" of Scandinavia and the "Berid" of Iberia. It is
probably an Upper Paleolithic derived type and possibly Proto-Mediterranid.
The Paleo-Atlantid and North Atlantid are considered related by some, and not by
others.
-- posted by Milesian
» jrfromcv - Re: Black Irish - Anthropological view
In response to Black Irish - Anthropological view posted by Milesian:Interesting writing. However, when trying to determine Irish Ancestry/history, one should look at as many plausible clues as they can get their hands on. Not just physiology. Example: The origins of the term "Black Irish". Lets review this, a few dark-haired, dark-eyed, light skinned male Spanish sailors from a sunken Spanish Armada ship swam to the Irish seashore. They married a few dark-haired, dark-eyed, light-skinned Irish females. And wow, fourhundred plus years later their completely unknown offspring/descendents are now (and only NOW) being called "Black Irish". This is a perfect example of Irish Tale Spinning in the 21st century. You want to know the origin of "Black Irish", look up the origin of "Black Dutch" and replace the words Dutch with Irish, drink a lot of whiskey and write a story on the internet. There is no such thing as "Black Irish". I would venture to guess this term was stolen from the term "Black Dutch" in 20th Century America. I don't know who did it, but people have been trying to define and validate it every since. Using the term "Black Irish" to describe native Irish people (because most Irish have dark eyes and dark hair) would be like using the term "Black Chinese" to describe native Chinese people. It's redundant, why would you? It has to be one of the most ridiculous terms (in any context) I've ever heard.
I will give you facts first, then my opinion.
Fact:
1. For an unknown number of centuries the large majority of Irish people ate mostly potatoes, drank potatoe whisky, told amazing(unbelievable) stories and roamed. The Irish descendents of today are now left with stories made up by drunken Seamus' we now affectionately call Fairy Tales. In other words, tales of headless horsemen, halflings, changlings, magical leprechauns and Goddesses of love didn't actually exist.
2. Prior to the English/Norman invasion of the 12th century there isn't much written Irish history. Everybody has a different opinion/excuse as to why the early Irish didn't record their history. I think the reason is self evident.
Opinion:
1. The original Gaels sailed to the island now known as Ireland from Persia. Particularly the area now known as Iran. The ancient(not modern) Gaelic language is very similar to the ancient Persian language, EI: Erin/Iran. The Gods and Monsters of Irish Folklore are similar to the Gods and Monsters of the Persian Empire. Also the basis of the Druid rituals. Gaelic surnames (NOT English versions of Gaelic names IE: Calleaugh/Kelley) are similar to ancient Persian names. I agree with your writing regarding skin depigmentation. The Persians were light skinned and dark haired. Over the centuries the Gaelic skin would have gone from an Olive color to pale-white due to a lack of sunshine in Erin.
What I'm trying to say is, Don't believe most of what you read about anything Irish. And nobody knows where the hell our ancient ancestors came from, or who if anybody, was in Erin prior to the Gael imigration. The hard proof doesn't exist. Irish history is both fascinating and heartbreaking. But the reality is, if you don't know who you came from, you'll never know who you are now.
Regards,
J.R. Kelley
-- posted by jrfromcv
» SherryMac - Black Irish
I beg to differ, but there IS some truth to some sort of mediterranean influence involved in black Irish. My grandmother said she was black irish. One in each branch of my family is olive-skinned, dark haired with navy blue eyes (grandmother, father, sister, nephew, son). Everyone else leans toward blonde or light brown hair; freckled or extremely fair skinned; lt.. blue or green eyes. Besides the Irish, I'm entirely of Scot descent (perhaps with a little English thrown in) so the olive-skin didn't come from there.-- posted by SherryMac
» ArpadGododdin - Black Irish
A German, Mollweide did a scrupulous research of racial types in Europe about 1930. He measured skulls and noted hair types. He noted that in the area around Dubline they had very round skulls and black curly hair. Nowhere else in Europe is like them and this tribe is thought to have been there for thousands of years. The spanish Armada landed men on the west coast only 400 yrs ago and they were typical north east spanish.-- posted by ArpadGododdin
» CahillWhale - Re: Re: Re: Black Irish
I had been told by a relative that my Irish ancestry from my Mom , we are decended from Portugese gypsy's. Does anyone else have that experience or have heard of Portugese Gypsy's being intermarried with Irish. My family does have the cheekbones and coloring and personalities of the Portugese...-- posted by CahillWhale
» Blarni - Black Irish - American myth
The term 'black Irish' is an American term only - it's unknown in Ireland. As for the Armada myth, that's nonsense too - the contemporary records explicitly state that the few Spanish survivors were rounded up by the English garrisons and executed (those who weren't robbed and murdered by local Irish).I have travelled right through Ireland, and have never seen anyone with "olive" skin, certainly complexion can vary but usually only between fair and pale as a ghost. The phenotype is mostly dark-haired and light-eyed, with pockets of fairer types, "curly" hair is uncommon. I think if the people in this forum have odd 'olive' 'dark-eyed' 'curly-haired' traits they need to examine their ancestry post-Ellis Island.
-- posted by Blarni
» LiamO - "Black Irish"
The term “Black Irish” is as other’s have mentioned, an American term, but it referred to those Irish men and women who simply had dark or black hair, along with blue or light colored eyes. Since there is yet to be a definitive explanation as to why or how the term took root in our lexicon, it would probably be more interesting to examine when and why it first had been applied to our “Black Irish” people! First, for the love of God, let us all stop referring to our ancient Irish ancestors, as “Gaelic’s”. We are the “Celts” or “Scots, or Gaul’s if you wish, but Gaelic is a description of one of our dialects, and not one of our tribes.As to how we might have picked up a wee bit of mixed blood from the middle east, or Spain, Portugal, Greece, Turkey, Italy, etc, one only needs to take a moment to read any one of the countless wonderful history books available documenting our long and important history. There are countless books on our history like those written by such authors as Kevin Duffy, who wrote “Who Were The Celts”, Martin Wallace, A Short History of Ireland”, Victor Walkley, “Celtic Daily Life”, Jean Markale, “The Celts” and “Women of the Celts”, or if you want to get both a history lesson, and read fabulous novels all at the same time, then surely you must get your mitts on any book written by the true “Bard”, Morgan Llywelyn. She is a blessed gift to the rebirth of the modern Celtic soul. Her books have helped to bring back to life, the extraordinarily powerful, and moving history of our ancestors, a great people who helped mold the world and who enjoyed the full run of most of Europe and the Middle East up until the Roman Empire decided that they wanted the very same real estate. Though our Druids felt that it was bad and therefore forbidden to scribe the precious history of our people on paper, thus leaving us and the rest of the world to depend on the slanted recollections of our many adversaries, our same Druids possessed a phenomenal ability of memorizing all of our traditions, genealogies and history and carried this tremendous weight of knowledge until a small number of those true Druids that were left a thousand years ago were able to pass on some of the grains of this historical gold to those who did write some of it down. Once you start to learn our history, and I mean well beyond the story of Ireland and Alba, you will start to wonder, how we were able to keep our coloring as simple as it seems today.
-- posted by LiamO
» zinziberi - Re: Black Irish
In response to Black Irish posted by smacvill33:I have always understood the term "Black Irish" as a reference to the descendants of the African/Irish slaves of the 17th century, who survive to this day on the island Marreats.
After the successful invasion and subsequent subjugation of Ireland by Oliver Cromwell, approx. one quarter of the population of the country were sold and shipped to the West Indies as slaves to be worked on the sugar plantations.
These newly transported white slaves eventually interbred with the existing black slaves, the proof is clearly shown by the Irish dilects spoken by the islanders today.
-- posted by zinziberi
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