In the Hands of God?

» Abba91 - The Hands of GOD!!?

We are not only in the hands of GOD, we are the
hands of GOD!
THE ONLY FORM OF LOVE THAT IS ACCEPTABLE TO GOD IS THAT WHICH HE GIVES US AND THAT IS UNCONDITIONAL LOVE WITHOUT ANY JUDGEMENT.
The only God who is GOD, is the Lord God of Our Being and that means ALL HUMANKIND!

+Abba,Thoma Mathias

-- posted by Abba91

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» Olivia32 - Holding out the hand of God

Having worked in the mainstream church from time to time, I have observed that you can take a dozen of the most astute, practical businesspeople in the community, put them on a church committee, and watch them turn into a pack of blithering idiots... That is the nature of the institutional church, with few exceptions.

In conjunction with our local Transgender Support Group, I have become aware of the Metropolitan Community Churches and their inclusive ministry. While aimed primarily at the GLBT community, it is not unusual to see straight individuals and couples, and their children, in the congregation on Sunday. Our local congregation is special to me, because the minister of this growing, vital congregation is a Transgendered Woman...

So, while the mainstream denominations struggle over jot and tittle for years while extending the finger of rebuke, the MCC churches and others of like mission, are holding out the hand of fellowship - the hand of God - to everyone. Now.

-- posted by Olivia32

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» mcwolf - A little discerning

Hello again K.
I enjoy, when able, to read your articles. Primarily the attempt for an understanding of where the gay lifestyle stands, their views and their own ideology. I also feel comfortable for discussion as opposed to argurments here.

I just read your article concerning the Luthern Church and the two previous posts. I was not aware the Luthern Church was even looking into this. I personally find it disturbing. You had basically said 'so what'. I see it a little differently. If the Luthern Church is attempting to read the acceptance of homosexuality then they could actually incorporate the act in their Church. What I mean is at this point homosexuality is viewed against God's law as immoral and unacceptable. Whereas if a Church were to accept it they would weaken and go against Gods wishes thus watering down and weakening the Church itself. I believe some from the Catholic Church has already done this to some extent and a group of homosexuals has separated from the church.

I also disagree with the thought that it is ok to sit on the fence. The reason is the Bible specifially speaks of the last days when the church and people will fall away from the Word of God. Also God would rather you be cold or hot as opposed to lukewarm, He will spew you out of his mouth. This is the main reason of my concern to hear the Luthern Church is looking into this. The Word of God is very specific, the act of homosexuality is immoral and wrong.

One last note. You stated that in the afterlife it will be straightend out. I must warn you and those reading these articles and comments, this is an inaccurate statement.
We are given a choice on this world to either accept or reject Jesus Christ as the son of God. To believe or disbelieve He sinlessly died on the cross for our redemption and sins. He rose the 3rd day therefore defeating this world, death and Satan. He now sits upon the right hand of God as our intercessor and will soon return.
It is our decision to either accept Him or not. That decision will determine our eternal home, Heaven or Hell. There is no inbetween nor purgatory. The Bible makes this very clear.

I have heard arguments if homosexuals will go to Heaven and most say no but Hell. I believe what the Bible says that if you accept Christ and confess with your mouth believing all in your heart you will be saved.
When you accept Christ you are a new person and have been redeemed by His sacrifice.
When Christ returns we will be given ncorruptable bodies neither marrying nor in marriage.

I don't wish to preach but I find this most important for everyone to know.

Thank you

-- posted by mcwolf

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» Olivia32 - Re: A little discerning

In response to message posted by mcwolf:

I think it is important that we go to the primary source....

What did Jesus himself have to say about homosexuals?

Nothing...

(You can look it up...)

-- posted by Olivia32

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» beatlefan79 - Re: A little discerning

In response to message posted by mcwolf:

Thanks (as always) for your insightful posts. Just remember, that not everyone is a Christian, so for some people, the Bible has little to no effect on their religious lives. Maybe I was a little biased in that article, I'm sure that this decision will matter to the Lutherans, but in the grand scheme of things, what they decide to do about religious officials doesn't affect most people that aren't Christian--and most of the world isn't. I think if all the religions got together and made decisions like this, it would have a greater world impact. This is probably a first step in that direction, though, so we should all pay attention. Since spirituality has a lot to do with who I am, I can't be a part of a religious group where I have to deny a part of myself (NOTE: I'm NOT saying Christianity is bad in any way, I think it's a beautiful religion). Therefore, I personally, am not worried about the possible trend of denying homosexuals the right to be ministers, preachers and the like.
I feel like I'm saying this badly, this is what I get for replying to this at bedtime. But you did bring up a valid point. I personally, don't like to call my philosopy "fencesitting" (although I often call it that for lack of a better word LOL), because I can't take one side or the other. Nothing is black or white to me, there are exceptions to every circumstance known to man.

-- posted by beatlefan79

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» mcwolf - Re: Re: A little discerning

In response to message posted by Olivia32:

Interesting you referred to a 'primary source'. True
, I cannot find a quote from Jesus. However, the primary source is indeed the Bible, Word of God. So given that let's look at the 'primary source'. Everyone seems to quote Sodom and Gommorah and the Book of Leviticus. Thr"oughout the Old Testament we see that God is displeased with the acts of homosexuality.

So lets look at the New Testament. I find in Romans chapter one vs 24 through 27.
1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts
of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between
themselves:
1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and
served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever.
Amen.
1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their
women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman,
burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working
that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that
recompence of their error which was meet.

Now what does this mean? "Women exchanged the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men and men comitting what is shameful, and receiving in themselves what is shameful..."

It goes on but let's see what God has to say on such acts. It is found further in vs 32.

1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
I am informing everyone reading these articles not out of hate but to give some light of truth here.

-- posted by mcwolf

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» mcwolf - Re: Re: A little discerning

In response to message posted by beatlefan79:

Let me just say that we are all sinners. I at times feel I need to say, " Hello, I am mcwolf. I am a sinner."

The fact of the manner is noone deserves to be saved and go to heaven. Only through God's redeeming Son is this made possible. However, I also feel that those who accept the truth cannot or should not be swayed to accept a wrong by saying it's OK or right.

This is not to say the individual is "dirty" or "beneath another". That would be bigotry and hate.
Because no one is worthy.

Yet to say God has made me this way, is actually wrong. We are all sinners from the fall of Adam. But by accepting Jesus as our Lord and Saviour we are new creatures and daughters and sons of God.

There are many individuals out there that has changed their lifestyle from homosexuality by accepting this truth.

There is a great argument of 'sexual orientation'. I have looked and continued to look into this and still feel it is a decision of the individual. I must say also that some are more acceptable to this lifestyle then others.

-- posted by mcwolf

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» mcwolf - Re: Re: Re: A little discerning

In response to message posted by mcwolf:

Actually I did everyone a dis-service here. There is a important quote from Jesus Christ that does share light on your request Oliva32.

I am looking at Mark chapter 10 vs 6 through 9.
10:6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and
female.
10:7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to
his wife;
10:8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain,
but one flesh.
10:9 What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

Lets look at this closely.
"From the beginning of creation God 'made them male and female'." Remember when God created all things were good.

"For this reason a man shall leave...be joined to his wife....then they are no longer two, but one flesh." We see Jesus is speaking strictly of heterosexual marriage. Not homosexuality nor co-habiting heterosexuals.

"Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate." This would include the ACLU, heh heh. Although we see this occuring with the most recent 'domestic laws'.

Similiar to the word 'rapture' never appearing in the Bible, 'homosexuality' does not exist. However, both exist and the Word of God does speak about them.

Thanks for allowing everyone to speak about this and I hope this helps Olivia32 and anyone else out there.

Similiar passage is also found in the other four Gospels.

-- posted by mcwolf

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» lleutiegr - Re: Re: A little discerning

In response to message posted by Olivia32:

I actually heard a bible-literal pastor try to refute this. I'd like to refute it myself, only not as he intended! Look at the story about the healing of the centurion's servant. The concern that the soldier shows for his slave is much more than we would expect. Looking into it, the literal Hebrew translations show that he actually refers to his servant as "my beloved", meaning as a lover. Where is the condemnation? Where is the rejection? Jesus accepts him warmly and heals his loved one.

For more information, see this fantastic site by a formerly homophibic preacher:
http://www.gseh65.freeserve.co.uk/index....

I've always thought that the rights of gays is a legal, not a religious debate. As much as that's true, I love finding more evidence that discrimination is intolerable - to _everyone._ Not just us non-religious gays. Not just mankind. Everyone.

Much Love

-- posted by lleutiegr

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» lleutiegr - Scholarly Biblical debates, essence of morality

In response to message posted by mcwolf:

First off, as a side note, I think it's interesting that you point out as support the other four gospels. Luke and Matthew are commonly held to be revised versions of Mark, much like John may be gleaned from various apocrypha such as St Thomas (made famous by the movie _Stigmata_).

As a part of this discussion, I really can't recommend enough the website I referred to in my last post. It's a straightforward, simple starting place for the guts of this issue as a scholarly debate. (Here it is again:
http://www.gseh65.freeserve.co.uk/index.... )

It's equally as interesting the circles that your citations run on this: The "definition" of marriage in the bible is a joining of a man and a woman. Any sexual conduct outside of marriage is sinful and a perversion. Therefore, homosexuality is wrong.

It is wrong simply because of its definition. This is basically saying "it's wrong because it's wrong" or "A=B because A=B".

Is something right because God says so, or does God say so because it is right? In other words, is there a moral sense separate from God, inherent in our lives? Was lying wrong before God said it was, or did it instantly become wrong when he said it?

If the latter is true - that lying was not wrong before God said it was - then he could have just as easily said it was right. I know you'll say, "he wouldn't do that," but the idea is only that he _could_. If this is true, it negates the value of God's judgements. It converts "It is right because God says so" into "God says so because God says so", which is nonsense.

However, if it was wrong to lie before God made that decree, and he had the wisdom to perceive it, then there is a system of right and wrong independent from God. This implies that it is a system, a framework, whereby we can understand right and wrong with reasons and perceptions, discussion, and much thought. There is a moral sense apart simply from "it is so because it is so". We can understand that murdering is horribly destructive, painful, and otherwise morally wrong - not simply and _exclusively_ "against God's decree".

I'm thankful for that; the ability to see that has helped us move beyond slavery, discrimination against women, racism, religious intolerance, and genocide - sadly, only for the most part. (see http://www.religioustolerance.org/imm_bi... for more specific references and refutations - and don't forget other religions that struggle with this!).

An open dialogue is a wonderful thing.. Thank you for your voice.

-- posted by lleutiegr

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