Frederick Jackson Turner and the Closing of the American Frontie
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- LarryW_4
- not_him_again
- LarryW_4
- not_him_again
- LarryW_4
- not_him_again
- LarryW_4
- not_him_again
- bigmike1
- ficklelobster
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» LarryW_4 - Todd, I guess I have trouble with metaphysics in general. I don'
Todd, I guess I have trouble with metaphysics in general. I don't see the internet as a frontier in the sense of "resources without proprietors". At best the internet is a metaphor for frontiers. I do believe it will soon be possible, if it is not possible already, to attempt a validation of frontier theory using digital life forms called cellular automata. You strike me as a computational sort. Perhaps you would like to link from here to one of the sites that deals with artificial life forms.Virtual reality used as a substitute for frontiers would be really dangerous. It's been used as a basis for some pretty frightening science fiction, although exact titles escape me at the moment.
You ask if frontier theory can be applied to the global trend in business. Now that will be an interesting thing to watch. If my understanding is correct, then general, global warfare is a better metaphor than pioneering for what's going to happen.
-- posted by LarryW_4
» not_him_again - Brian Carpenter Larry, how much of frontier theory is tied up i
Brian Carpenter Larry, how much of frontier theory is tied up in Robert Ardrey and his ideas?So where do we go? Mars or under the oceans?
Or is there something we are overlooking here? Some radical change that will make space travel possible? Interstellar, I mean. And is man the only species with this drive?
I suspect that when we master the true art of mobility, we may suddenly be very different than we are now, not just in degree, but in kind.
-- posted by not_him_again
» LarryW_4 - Brian, Robert Ardrey (<i>The Territorial Imperative</i>)does ind
Brian, Robert Ardrey (The Territorial Imperative)does indeed share some philosophical ground with frontier theory. Having said this, I must say that I also believe that the frontier is a more fundamental idea than the animal origins of nations, etc. I mean by this that no living thing which does not disperse survives for long.So where do we go? Not the ocean. In many respects the sea is overtaxed as the land. Besides, you need a separation of at least several days travel time to be far enough away from the cops to call yourself a pioneer. That does leave space. Easy? No. Possible? Certainly.
Leaving the earth and living in space is simply not that hard to imagine if you abandon the idea of reliance on chemical rockets. The technolgy of spaceflight has a definite place in this topic. I have been avoiding it deliberately in order to lay a philosophical groundwork.
You are right to think that mastering this technology will make us different. It already has. I give you Apollo 8 and our first view of the earth from outside. These things have a tendency to make people more spiritual.
I expect that the next frontier, if we see one, will work changes in philosophy and science that will lead to the next leap across the chasms between stars, and then to new galaxies, and then we may discover alternate universes. And these will be populated with beings like us, and unlike us. I very much hope that we discover them before they discover us. Refer to the history of the indigenous American peoples for my reasoning.
-- posted by LarryW_4
» not_him_again - Brian Carpenter Yes, I have heard that discussed before... the
Brian Carpenter Yes, I have heard that discussed before... the idea that we will be on the losing end of contact.However, what if human beings have other origins than earth-bound organic evolution? Is it possible that the contact already took place? I am not referring to Von Daniken, I don't think he is very scientific, but Zechariah Sitchin might be worth some consideration by the thoughtful person.
And I wonder if some other means of travel- such as out of body- would change us if it became commonly accepted and understood, practiced, ect.
But I think there really is something to much of what you are saying- where does this desire to move on come from? And I agree that it is a real phenomenon. But do we all have this desire, or is it only some of us, and is it something that truly makes some humans different from others if we do not all share it? And how much of history is simply the realization of expected behavior under frontier theory?
-- posted by not_him_again
» LarryW_4 - If we were castaways, passengers on a crippled spacecraft fleein
If we were castaways, passengers on a crippled spacecraft fleeing a war-ravaged civilization, it would still be necessary for us to find our own way off this island earth. Zecharia Sitchin and his Twelfth Planet ideas are interesting, but I think they are largely irrelevant to frontier theory. If you're hoping for a rescue and an easy return to Starfleet, or something, forget it. God, or whatever agency of creation we credit with our existence, has given us all the tools we need to survive, including the ability to inhabit the inner solar system, which is OK for starters. We are expected to exercise our gifts.Does this make us who wish to leave earth special? Sure. It makes us losers. Most guys who have succeeded on earth aren't particularly interested in leaving it. But when we losers shake the dust of this planet off our boots, some of us will become legends.
While we're way off in left field, by the way, have you considered yet how much of this sounds Biblical -- those who are last shall be first, and so on.
-- posted by LarryW_4
» not_him_again - Brian Carpenter A very interesting and original point, at least
Brian Carpenter A very interesting and original point, at least in my own experience.If this is some form of genetic determinism, is it probable that it would be common to alien life forms as well? I.E. is what makes species dominant the urge to relocate and expand?
-- posted by not_him_again
» LarryW_4 - Killer bees, being aggressive colonizers, do seem to dominate wh
Killer bees, being aggressive colonizers, do seem to dominate wherever they go. They are a case in point. The African bee's enthusiasm for pioneering gives it an edge in the evolutionary sweepstakes. So I expect the Africanized variety to replace the European honey bee in the wild. I don't know exactly what that means to the apiary business, but the above prediction is one application of frontier theory the bee folk should heed I think.What about applications of frontier theory to history? Do you think that Alexander the Great had some inking that human civilizations rise by expansion and fall by stasis?
As to alien civilizations, I'd like to read what you think.
-- posted by LarryW_4
» not_him_again - Brian Carpenter Well, some of what Alexander did could be const
Brian Carpenter Well, some of what Alexander did could be construed as supporting expansionism... especially his line of conquests. Some writers seem to think much of his desire for conquest was simply a curiousity to see new things, and assume new challenges.He undoubtedly was "different" from most others of his day. This is confirmed by various sources, such as, I believe, Arrian. His troops had to beg him to stop before he finally turned back. And his expansionism was far greater than anticipated; when he was offered half of the Persian Empire, his best Officer said he should take the offer, but Alexander did not want half of anything.
I think that if an alien race was so advanced that it had no worries, or challenges, it would try to create them or find new ones, because the leaders would go mad with boredom.
Maybe that is part of what we are trying to quantify here... it may well be true that not everyone is oriented toward the unknown and its challenges, but in general, leader types are. I suspect that this would indeed hold for most any intelligent life form. If this is so, certainly frontier theory could be a constant.
-- posted by not_him_again
» ficklelobster - You are completely wrong in your theory about the bees.
You are completely wrong in your theory about the bees. I think you have some severe problems and your parents probably built you a swing facing the wall when you were young. Sorry to bring you this harsh reality.-- posted by ficklelobster
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