Line up for Balaclava

Top 2. Jul 29, 2001 6:55 AM

» John_Barr - Re: Paget and Artillery

In response to message posted by lollies100:

Paget was both. His regimental rank was Lt Colonel as this was the established level of rank for a cavalry regiment command - he also carried the 'brevet' rank of Colonel, for which he had neither responsibility nor pay. You are right that in the interests of consistency I should add this and I have done so - thanks for pointing this out.

The direct support artillery that you would find on the battlefield was of two types. Royal Horse Artillery 'troops' which primarily supported the cavalry arm, and Royal Artillery 'field batteries' which supported the infantry. Both were similar in strength- around 220 all ranks - although the RHA 'troops' unsurprisingly had more horses. The most striking difference was in their tactical employment. The RHA had to support the shock action of cavalry and therefore move fast over the battlefield. This required a higher calibre of gunner, with specialised gunners and drivers, and more NCOs. The field batteries were required to identify themselves with, and increase the volume of fire of, the infantry formations to which they were attached. This meant they were always operating in close support. At the start of the war all troops and batteries were armed with 4 x 9 pdr guns and 2 x 24 pdr howitzers. As an aid to mobility, the troops supporting the Cavalry Division were scaled down to 6pdr guns and 12 pdr howitzers. Don't worry about the letters. (in 'I' Troop it is the letter 'i' not the figure one, which may have confused you). For our purposes, they have no significance other than for identification - there is no sequence by which you might identify the formations they support, as with the Russians. Hope this helps. Will be happy to go into more detail if you wish.

There is plenty in store for the Charge of the Heavy Brigade. It gets the full article to be published on 24th August. Also I have a guest author lined up for 21st September, with the graphic account of his ancestor who actually took part in the charge with the 1st Royal Dragoons. So watch this space!!

I don't know of any book devoted to the biography of Brigadier General James Scarlett - perhaps if anyone knows of one they will join the discussion. However here is a potted version:

Scarlett, Lt Gen Hon Sir James Yorke, K.C.B

Cornet 26th March 1818; Lieut 24th Oct 1821; Captain 9th June 1825; Major 8th June 1830; Lt.Col. 3rd July 1840; Col. 11th Nov 1851; Maj.Gen. 12th Dec 1854; Col. 5th Dragoon Guards 3rd Aug 1860; Lt.Gen. 9th Nov 1862. Commanded the Heavy Cavalry Brigade, and later the Cavalry Division in the Crimea, including the Battles of Balaklava, Inkermann and the Chernaya, and the Siege and Fall of Sevastopol. He was awarded the K.C.B.,the Crimea Medal with three clasps, the Legion of Honour (3rd Class), the Al Valore Militare, the Order of the Mejedie (2nd Class) and the Turkish Crimea Medal.

The above comes from the very useful index of personalities in 'Eyewitness in the Crimea - The Crimean War Letters of Lieut. Col. George Frederick Dallas' by Michael Hargreave Mawson, published earlier this year by Greenhill Books (www.greenhillbooks.com), and an absorbing and informative read in its own right.

-- posted by John_Barr

Top 3. Aug 30, 2001 9:03 AM

» John_Barr - Lost Message

We seem to have lost a message - It was posted as number 3 on this subject yesterday in the attendant software but didn't get through as text.
Perhaps the sender clicked on the wrong instruction -something I'm always doing. If the sender should come back to us here, perhaps they will be kind enough to resend.

-- posted by John_Barr

Top 4. Sep 1, 2001 5:07 AM

» lollies100 - Re: Lost Message

In response to message posted by John_Barr:

John,
It was my message that is lost (forever, also for me)I just wanted to ask what 'Brevet Col' meant, For George Paget was also breveted. Since this last message I wonder wether Sir George Paget was a member of the famous Paget family related to the Marquess of Angelsy and family of the surgeaon William Paget and the physicist -Nobel prize winner - Paget.
Since we have now entered qthe episode of The Charge(s), first the heavies, later on the light brigade. Can you spent some lines on the commands of cavalry movements (threes, wheel movements etc.... commands) just to know what happened on the field.
I hope this time the message will come through

-- posted by lollies100

Top 5. Sep 3, 2001 9:18 AM

» John_Barr - Lord George Paget

In response to message posted by lollies100:

Yes, this time the message came through fine. Thanks for writing.

Brevet rank was awarded to individuals ostensibly for meritorious service. You could only have the right number of officers per rank in a regiment as per the approved organisation - this was their regiment rank which carried the laid down approved responsibilities and the pay level which went with them. But as a way to get round this system, individuals could be awarded 'army' rank. They were permitted to wear the insignia of this army rank, and their seniority in the army counted at their army rank level from the date they were appointed. This became extremely significant at Lieut Colonel level because promotion from this level was by seniority only - you couldn't buy yourself a commission as a General. So when Lord George was made Brevet Colonel he leapfrogged over all the other Lieut Colonels in the promotion stakes, although he only had 20 years service. (He actually finished up a full General in 1877). He was indeed part of the Anglesey family - his father was the 1st Marquess who commanded the Cavalry at Waterloo. Incidentally the current Marquess is the President of our Crimean War Appreciation Society.

I'm by no means an expert on mid-19th Century Cavalry Drill, but I'll do my best to give an accurate picture of what the formations looked like at the most dramatic times. If this does not come over, please yell and I'll give whatever additional detail I can in these discussion columns.

-- posted by John_Barr

Top 6. Sep 4, 2001 11:18 AM

» lollies100 - Re: Lord George Paget

In response to message posted by John_Barr:

As for my question on Cavalry Drill, my aim is twofold a. to understand what happened to Earl Lucan when in Varna he tried to command (a part of?) his Division on the parade ground. He shouted 'a command' and nobody understood what he wanted to be executed because the drill commands ad changed. b. In consolation of Lucan the Commander-in-Chief told him that it was not as bad as what happened at Chillianwallah, where by a misinterpretation of Generals Pope's(?) order the bugler blew the signal for a 180° turn so the first and second line collided. So what command gave the General and what did the bugler thought he heard?
John, you mentioned the 'Crimean War Appreciation Society', this is the first time I heard that name, I know the 'Crimean War Society' I presume this is a complete different organisation.
In the next epoisodes the Cavalry will come under heavy artillery fire. Can you spend some time on their ammunition (round- and shellshot and, most of all, case- and grapeshot (size and numbers of the bullets or whatever these 'projectiles' may be called, range of effectiveness with the different calibres of guns....) If you ever got pictures of this ammunition (case or grape, please put it into your article.
thanks

-- posted by lollies100

Top 7. Sep 6, 2001 5:08 AM

» John_Barr - Chillianwala etc

In response to message posted by lollies100:

Yes, for the benefit of readers who have not come across this, the Battle of Chillianwala took place in 1849 in India during the 2nd Sikh War. The Light Cavalry Brigade, which included 2 British Army Regiments, the 9th Lancers and the 14th Light Dragoons, withdrew from the battlefield, after an order 'threes right' which would have inclined the line by threes to the right, in order to realign it, was misconstrued as 'threes about' or as you say a 180 degree turn - it was in fact the whole brigade, not just the front rank. As a result several guns exposed by the cavalry's departure were captured by the Sikhs before normality was restored. The general got sacked.

I haven't heard of this being recalled when Lucan confused the 5th Dragoon Guards during the Review Parade for Omar Pasha at Varna by long obsolete commands from the drill book he had last used in 1837. I haven't seen the detail of the actual commands he used anywhere on record, but one subaltern's account states "Lord Lucan took command of the Regiment himself, a most unusual thing. In 10 minutes he managed to 'club it' (ie make a total hash of it, in the slang of the time) most effectually". Unusually for Lucan, however, when tactfully reminded by his senior subordinates afterwards that he was somewhat out of date, he accepted the fact and didn't embarrass himself again.

It may be that 'don't worry, it's not Chillianwala' was a catchphrase in the Crimea - I just haven't come across it. It was definitely used by General Airey when sent by Raglan to try and cool Lucan down when he was feeling resentful that the blame for the Light Brigade charge was going to be pinned on him. Not the most tactful remark at that particular moment, although reportedly said in a light-hearted way.

I will gladly provide some additional detail on artillery projectiles - there is some basic mention in the article on The British Army in 1854 - Part 2 although obviously not sufficient for what you'd like. I will post something in the discussion page accompanying that article, but no pictures I'm afraid - with very few exceptions it's very difficult now to get agreement from publishers to reproduce onto the net, as they worry about the uncontrolled potential downloading. A main reason why I do my own maps.

The correct name for the Society is Crimean War Research Society Excuse my absent mind. You can find them in my 'links' pages. You are obviously interested to a level where you might consider it worthwhile joining - the quarterly journals regularly contain detailed articles on weaponry and ammunition as well as all other aspects of the War and an index and copies of back numbers are available.

-- posted by John_Barr

Top 8. Sep 6, 2001 1:21 PM

» lollies100 - Re: Chillianwala etc

In response to message posted by John_Barr:

In fact for the drill commands there were two seperate questions. The first one about Lucan at Varna and the obsolete commands he used. The second about the charge and Airey's remark (I thought it was Raglan's in a written note) and his comparison with Chillianwala. As for the latter, what bothers me is the use of 'three' and 'wheel'. Does 'threes' mean 'files' and is a wheel a (much larger) line?
From your answer I get that 'about' is a 180° turn, was there also a command 'around' and, if positive, what does it meant?
As for the Crimean War Research Society, I had already bookmarked its site. It shows some pictures of its 2000 weekend featuring the President M. Rod ROBINSON. Is he the actual Marquess of Anglesey, or is the Marquess a honorary President, not an active one?

Regarding pictures of case- and grapeshot, do you know a site where I can find them?

I think that for the next time I will keep quiet so that you can do the publication work properly. See/hear you after the charge.

PS: If ever you can explain how a gun is 'spiked'...or is this only the 'technical' expression to say that a gun was silenced by a close range action?

-- posted by lollies100

Top 9. Sep 8, 2001 2:56 PM

» lollies100 - Re: Re: Chillianwala etc

In response to message posted by lollies100:

Posting number 9 is missing on this discussion. Someone pushed the wrong button?
By the way I got from the internet that after the battle at Waterloo the Earl of Uxbridge was made Marquess of Anglesey. What is the ranking order of the english titles?
Promised, last intervention before The Charge!

-- posted by lollies100

Top 10. Sep 9, 2001 11:02 AM

» John_Barr - Cavalry Drills and Gun Spikes

In response to message posted by lollies100:

Dear Mr/Ms Van Meir,

My reply to your next last crashed in transit to publication yesterday - Saturdays get really busy and strange things happen, so that's probably why you saw another phantom message posted. So I decided to cut my losses and see if I could remember today what I tried to say yesterday.

Most important, I think - what did you mean by your remark 'I think for the next time I will keep quiet'. Why??? The whole point about discussion pages is that we discuss. For goodness sake don't run away with the idea that you're a pain - quite the reverse! I enjoy the challenge of an enquiring mind and when I don't know the answers it gives me the stimulus to try to find out and if I can we both benefit.

Cavalry drill movements in the mid-19th Century were really complicated. When the 11th Hussars were reviewed by the Queen and Prince Albert on Wimbledon Common on 27th June 1849 the regiment performed 31 different manoeuvres. Prince Albert reviewed Dublin Garrison, with four regiments (13 Squadrons) plus a troop of horse artillery on parade on 2nd September 1853 - there were 21 manoeuvres, each stage managed to form a kaleidiscope of pretty movement, like the crowd patterns in Chinese stadia. But these had as little to do with battle as US Marine squads throwing their rifles about while the band plays St Louis Blues. If you can keep in mind that on the battlefield, the cavalry has to go into action in line, and to get to their jumping off point they have to move in column, you're most of the way there.

The basic cavalry unit was the Squadron composed of two Troops, each averaging 65 horsemen, but for the Light Brigade at Balaklava down to 35. The Troops paraded in two ranks. Every horseman, with the one immediately behind him, was termed a 'file'. Each regiment was composed of three to four Squadrons - by the time of Balaklava they were down to two or even one and a half. A charge would be made in 'open order' - necessary against artillery, said the 1851 Drill Manual - with one yard between riders and two yards between files - or in 'close order', knee to knee and nose to tail respectively, like the Light Brigade charge.

If you weren't in the right place, it was not practical other than in a stadium to pivot your whole line on the inside horseman and wheel the line intact - your outside horses would have collapsed before the line was reformed in the required direction. Also the 'fog of war' meant that your limits of clear visibility were typically down to around 15-20 feet once the shells were getting lobbed amongst you. Calculating that three horse in line would take up the space of one horse at 90 degrees in column, it made sense that the quickest and most practical and effective move from line into column and vice versa would be by threes. Now I don't know exactly how the drill book laid down the execution of 'threes right' but I would suspect that the line pivoted on nos. 1, 4, 7, 11 etc. front and rear files. 'Threes about' would continue the movement through a further 90 degrees. 'Threes left' would pivot the line on nos. 3, 6, 9, 12 etc. If anyone can either confirm or refute this we would love to hear from you.

The support line was ideally supposed to follow up 400 yds behind the charge. Any third line would be 'well back' in reserve and they would revitalise the initial momentum of the charge in double squadron columns.

Moving on to your query about spiking the guns. If you look closely at 19th century cannon outside museums or on battlefield sites, you can see a small hole on top near the base. This was known as the vent. Once the cartridge bag was rammed, a gunner stabbed down the vent with a 'pricker' which burst the bag to aid good subsequent combustion when a copper tube full of powder was inserted into the vent, and a slow burning match known as a portfire and looking like a present day sparkler was applied to the tube and then - boom! So you can see that an iron spike hammered into the vent as a tight fit would immobilize that gun at least for the duration of your average battle. The gun spikes were in fact a manufactured item of ordnance and were issued from stores as were the wooden mallets to tap them in - the Light Brigade senior NCOs complained bitterly because they had not been issued enough of them before the Charge.

I'm not qualified to answer questions about the Crimean War Research Society. Papers I have show the Marquess of Anglesey to be President and Mr Robinson to be Chairman, but you'll need to address any queries to them.

Finally my Chambers Book of Facts shows the British aristocracy pecking order as King, Prince, Duke, Marquess, Earl, Viscount, Baronet. Sadly it doesn't go down to my level.

Hope this brings us up to date. Look forward to your next post. Keep 'em coming!

-- posted by John_Barr