Spike's Soul: What Does it Mean?

» Dave_Kendall - Spike's soul

I have a few nitpicks with the article, but overall I thought it was a very well considered and intelligent analysis of Spike.

I disagree with the author that Buffy was showing respect for Spike, I didn’t see much respect for him when she said “You're a thing. An evil, disgusting, thing.” in Smashed. I think he was just convenient for Buffy, Spike himself realised that in OMWF “Whisper in a dead man's ear, It doesn't make it real.”. IMO Spike’s attitude towards Buffy only seemed to change after she stopped treating him anything like a friend and made it clear that she saw him as nothing but another monster. Also I think the Buffy/Spike sexual relationship severed any remaining ties between Spike and the scoobies that had built up during the summer. It’s hard to see how Spike could have interacted with Dawn and the others when Buffy was threatening him with death if he told anyone they were sleeping together.

Certainly it was horrible to see Spike try to drag Buffy into the darkness in Dead Things. Although I see that more as an act of desperation when Spike started to realise that his relationship with Buffy was doomed, rather than something he intended to do all along. I didn’t see Spike try to drag Buffy down to his level before the balcony scene in DT. To me his comments in Smashed were purely anger over the things Buffy said to him, he was simply giving as good as he got IMO.

If Buffy had treated Spike with respect and encouraged him to change, then I would look more harshly on Spike’s slip back into darkness and his treatment of Buffy. But how many human characters with souls manage to resist evil without friendship and encouragement? I thought that was part of the story they told with Faith, in the end she needed someone to believe in her before she even attempted to find redemption. Despite his soul, even Angel did very little good before meeting Whistler and Buffy. The soul wasn’t enough on it’s own, Angel needed positive contact with humanity to become a hero. I think Spike’s lack of positive influences and encouragement was almost as much of a disadvantage as his lack of a moral compass.

Also, I have less of a problem than the author with some of Spike's actions towards Buffy in season 6.

Personally I cheered when Spike tried to get Buffy to quit her Double Meat job. A job like that would depress anyone and surely fighting demons is even more dangerous after she's spent the day in a boring job. Also, while I acknowledge that Spike was too harsh with Buffy in Normal again and I know he wasn't being fair. I think to a certain extent Spike was right, part of Buffy's problem was her martyr complex. In the end Buffy did snap out of it and start living again because of a single epiphany, not through years of therapy. Which would have been more realistic, but not very good TV.

I find it hard to take the demon egg incident as seriously as it was intended, simply because As You Were was such a bad episode. It’s easily the worst BtVS episode ever IMO, not just because of the way it made Spike look stupid, but because of the plot holes, inconsistencies and simple bad writing. I actually liked Riley in season 5 and I always wanted to see his personal problems addressed on the show, yet AYW gave him all the personality of a cardboard cut-out. I really wonder how that episode ever got filmed when there’s so much talent at Mutant Enemy.

Having said all that, I really can’t believe that Spike knew how dangerous the eggs really were. Not because of any moral issues, but because he’s not a complete moron and he has a sense of self preservation. Surely if Spike was a professional demon egg smuggler who knew what the eggs were, he would have known that they needed to be frozen to stop them from hatching and eating everything in the area (Spike included). Plus Spike never left Sunnydale, didn’t have a mobile phone and spent most of his time around Buffy, so when did he have the time to set up the necessary contacts to become a smuggler?

If they wanted to convince me of Spike’s guilt they should have put some hints in previous episodes, 30 seconds of Spike talking with suspicious characters would have done it. But as it stands I think Spike was thoughtless enough to store goods in his crypt without first finding out what they were. That’s still evidence that Spike lacks a moral compass, it shows that he needs a soul so that he doesn’t make that kind of mistake. But it’s not as bad as him knowingly selling weapons of mass destruction to the highest bidder.

The rape attempt was enough to convince me that Spike needed to get a soul, but IMO the writers could have done it in a more subtle way over the course of the season, rather than going for one shock event. But it’s all worked out in the end as I’m enjoying season 7 much more than I did season 6.

-- posted by Dave_Kendall

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» Lynnnie - Soul=saint? I hope not!

I have to say I'm a little disappointed with how the writers of BtVS are treating Spike this year. He has a soul now, but nine or ten episodes into the season, it seems as if this new acquisition has taken all the fun out of our boy. Now, a distinction has to be made between Spike under/not under the control of the First. In this posting, I'm referring to Spike not under the control.

Here's an example of the sort of thing that's bothering me. When I was watching the bedroom scene between Spike and Anya in "Sleeper," I nearly pulled my hair out waiting for Spike to be just a little snarky, smartmouthed, flirtatious--anything! Of course, he had to turn Anya down. But the way he did it? Diplomatic, earnest, painfully polite Spike just doesn't feel right. The Scoobies have souls, and these certainly don't turn them into models of enlightened humility. One of the most appealing things about Spike over the years (other than those amazing abs;-) is that, despite his numerous flaws, he's been able to pull off some pretty amazing white hat stuff. Stuff made even more amazing by the fact that he was soul-less. At this point in Season 7, Spike seems ironically "sparkless," saintly even, complete with the tormented self-flagellation. I'm just hoping the writers will eventually bring back some of Spike's old energy and personality, some of which I am sure is compatible with the new soul. And even though he still loves Buffy, I'm going to hate it if he keeps trailing after her like a whipped puppy. Thank the PsTB for the scene where he accuses her of being jealous, even though he almost immediately capitulates with a semi-pathetic "God help me, Buffy, it's still all about you."

The way I'd like to see their relationship go? Now that Spike is ensouled, Buffy feels more comfortable admitting her growing feelings for him to herself. Spike, though he still loves Buffy, realizes that he was not the only one at fault in their disasterous relationship last year, and is not willing to settle for anything less than the real thing from her. No more handing her his heart on a silver platter--she's going to have to do right by him if she wants him back.

Can't wait to see the rest of the season!!

-- posted by Lynnnie

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» Peggin - Re: Spike's soul

In response to message posted by Dave_Kendall:

I disagree with the author that Buffy was showing respect for Spike, I didn’t see much respect for him when she said “You're a thing. An evil, disgusting, thing.” in Smashed.

I think you misunderstood something in my essay, or maybe I wasn't very clear. When I said that Buffy was treating Spike respectfully, I was specifically talking about "After Life" and "Life Serial", when Buffy went to Spike's crypt just to hang out with him.

I didn’t see Spike try to drag Buffy down to his level before the balcony scene in DT.

There was a definite shift in Spike's attitude towards Buffy starting in "Life Serial”. It may have been more subtle than Buffy calling Spike an evil thing and hitting him, but his behavior towards her definitely changed before her behavior towards him did. Buffy had been consistently treating him well ever since she came back, and really back to the end of "Intervention". Maybe she wasn't treating him as a friend, but she was treating him way better than she had ever treated him before. By the time Buffy came to hang out with Spike in his crypt in “Life Serial”, I could tell that Spike was getting frustrated with the situation. He wanted more from her and he wanted it right away. That's when he started telling her she belonged in the darkness and she should try on his world.

I think Spike’s lack of positive influences and encouragement was almost as much of a disadvantage as his lack of a moral compass.

I half agree with this. When Spike claimed that he could be good, I think that, rather than just telling him flat out that it was impossible, Buffy should have told Spike something along the lines of, "I don't believe it's possible, but you go ahead and try to prove me wrong.” OTOH, I do think she was right that it was impossible. I'm not sure how much of a difference that would have made, but I do think it would have been a better way for her to deal with things.

Personally I cheered when Spike tried to get Buffy to quit her Double Meat job.

I have mixed feelings on this. I agree that fast food is a soul-sucking job. Maybe if Spike had come up with a more constructive alternative for her, tried to convince her she should look for a better job, I would see it as a good thing. But he didn't want her finding a better job. He wanted her to spend more time with him and let him steal money for her. I can't see that as a good, supportive type of thing to do.

The rape attempt was enough to convince me that Spike needed to get a soul, but IMO the writers could have done it in a more subtle way over the course of the season, rather than going for one shock event.

I can't agree with this. The people at Mutant Enemy write their story the way they do to get their characters where the characters need to be. I don't believe for a minute that the writers made that particular choice to prove anything about Spike to their viewers. I don't think it wasn't about convincing you, me, or any of the other people who watch the show of anything. It was about convincing *Spike* that he was evil and needed a soul before he could change. Spike continued to do evil things (or at least questionable things), but he absolutely refused to see that Buffy had any legitimate reasons for not wanting to be with him. He wasn't just going to wake up one evening and realize he could never be good without a soul. He needed to do something that forced him to look at himself and see a monster. I just can't imagine anything else that could caused him to look at himself that way other than hurting Buffy.

-- posted by Peggin

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