The Irish Potato Famines of 1845-49: A British Genocide?
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- Joe_Sramek
- Michael
- Joe_Sramek
- Joe_Sramek
- Michael
- Joe_Sramek
- Michael
- rkhen
- Michael
- Laughman
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» Joe_Sramek - While I think I would agree with you somewhat...
in your assertion that the British were trying to run an Empire and all that, I disagree with the assertion I believe you're making, in that because the British were trying to run an Empire, they starved out the Irish, for the following reasons...1) If the sources you discuss rely mostly or totally on diaries and journals written by British soldiers and officials, they are highly dubious sources. We all know the tendency to overexaggerate, and thus the all natural human tendency for the British soldier/offical to write down as directives what are perceived [by them] to be implied. To explain further, the British soldier or official may have felt that the authorities were implicitly ordering them to starve out the Irish, yet no actual directive to that nature was ever issued. This is not to say that they diaries or journals have no historical value. They do, but more as snapshots at the politics and morals of some of the principal historical actors in the Famine, and how they viewed their country's actions or lack thereof, than as definitive proof that there was genocidal intent. There very well might have been, but using diaries alone will not prove that there was or was not.... Furthermore, there are no examples of MEIN KAMPF to proffer either, so I remain unconvinced of many of these charges of genocidal intent....
2) On further danger in the "genocidal argument" that I allude to in my article but I will explain further is that much of the arguments made in the various books and articles have as much, if not more, of a political background than one rooted in history. Since the British still "illegally occupy" 6 counties of Ireland known as Northern Ireland, so the argument goes that the British have always been murderers, and to prove this, they go back in history and look for an example to fit the billing. The potato famines, thus, are a goldmine for polemicists who want to prove their theories....
In closing, I would say that I think "wrongful deaths", no matter how awkward an expression, best describes what happened 150 years ago. A natural event or events occurred, in that the potatoes, that most Irish depended on as a subsistence crop, rotted by a fungus that had never before appeared in Ireland, and this set off a whole chain of events which led to a lot of misery and the death or forced relocation of more than 2 million people. I shy away from the term "genocide," because of its highly pejorative nature. I do think it is debatable whether the Famines were indeed murder or genocide, but these debates should be on their own merits. In other words, I strongly object to the application of a modern-day political argument over the status of Northern Ireland, and the right or wrongness of the British today, to a historical event which is in many ways completely distinct.
Best regards,
Joe :-)
-- posted by Joe_Sramek
» Michael - The Irish Famine.
Joe, I am Irish from the six occupied Counties,and I would be interested to know where you are getting your information about the Famine.I like the piece( Since the British still "illegally
occupy" 6 counties of Ireland known as Northern Ireland, so the argument
goes that the British have always been murderers, and to prove this,
they
go back in history and look for an example to fit the billing
I don't suppose you ever read a book about Oliver Cromwell.
Funny thing I can name you four hundred unarmed civilians that the the SAS an their ilk,have murdered in the last twenty years.(in the occupied 6 Counties)
Maybe some of us do not have short memories.
ps Five of my family circle have been murdered,
-- posted by Michael
» Joe_Sramek - I think you misinterpreted what I said...
I used that particular phrase ONLY to make a point: that arguments about the famines being genocidal are usually related to similar ones about the British occupation of Northern Ireland since 1922. It has never been my intention, nor do I believe that it reads in such a way, to suggest that I support the IRA's position on the issue or vice-versa. I was just repeating an often heard argument on the particular question addressed by the previous posts.Perhaps as an American, and as an American of Irish descent from both Protestant and Catholic sides, I must "plead the fifth" on this issue. I really don't have a position either way, except that self-determination should be the general rule of thumb. In any event, I sincerely hope you weren't offended by what I said.
Best regards,
Joe :-)
-- posted by Joe_Sramek
» Joe_Sramek - Oh and BTW...
I have read many a book about Cromwell, who I think it is safe to say, is held in disdain by most students of British history.... But it does not follow that every British person since then is a murderous thug any more than any suggestion that Germans are the same as Adolf Hitler....Perhaps we have gotten away from my original point in all this... which is that apples are not oranges, i.e. the Irish Famines, no matter how horrible, in fairness, should not be compared to other genocides like the Holocaust....
Joe :-)
-- posted by Joe_Sramek
» Michael - The IRA
Joe, where did the IRA come into the conversation, it was the SAS that I was referring too and they are part of the Brittish army, not the IRA.Maybe you are not aware that they are still murdering people in the six Counties. A solicitor in the past few days (yes it was done with help from the SAS) Watch the papers and the news.
-- posted by Michael
» Joe_Sramek - IRA....
My only reason for using the IRA in any of my posts thus far is to elucidate further an original point of mine, i.e. that the Irish Nationalist/IRA/etc. position on the Irish Famines being one of original--if not key--moments of British "murder" is rooted very much in the modern day "Troubles." That was my only intent in using the name "IRA", and I believe I've already said that in a previous post....On another concern, I must admit that I am ignorant of what the main Protestant organizations of Northern Ireland think about the Famines, or the broader issue of the British in Ireland. I would venture to guess that anti-British feelings are not nearly as high as in the Catholic populations of Northern Ireland, but I could be wrong....
Regarding the SAS, I don't know all that much besides what you have told me. Here in the US, unless there's a major killing, such as the firebombing of the 3 boys last summer, whatever continuations of the Troubles are not reported here. Thus I must apologize if I got your argument wrong in my initial post....
Best regards,
Joe :-)
-- posted by Joe_Sramek
» rkhen - Very interesting article Joe.
Very interesting article Joe. The Potato Famine is one of those "interesting times" the Chinese have warned us about. Your mention of the Tory government writing off the famine as "laziness" especially caught my eye. They're still at it, of course; Reagan and Thatcher both took that line on poverty and unemployment, and to a lesser extent the same cancer has infected our system here in Canada. It's truly ironic that what are essentially supremely lazy leaders, attempted and still attempt to attribute society-wide catastrophes to the alleged laziness of others.By the way, you or your readers might enjoy my articles, "England's Other Languages" and "Thoul't Aye Be Dear Tae Me: Gaelic," which uploads 13 April.
Great site!
-- posted by rkhen
» Michael - The Irish Holocauct
Joseph, If you want proof that it really was a Holocaust click on this URL. http://www.irishholocaust.org and that should sort it once and for all-- posted by Michael
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