Circumcision Myths: Part I

Top 5. Jun 13, 2004 1:26 AM

» msaraann - Good Article

Thanks for addressing this issue. It is amazing how little thought some people give the decision to circumcize, or how easily coerced into doing it.

I've heard of Jewish non-cutting ceremonies. (http://www.circumstitions.com/Jewish.htm...

I also wanted to add the following link http://www.nocirc.org/. (They're having an essay contest, 'Is Circumcision Ethical?')

-- posted by msaraann

Top 6. Jun 13, 2004 6:59 PM

» WillsMom - Re: Good Article

In response to message posted by msaraann:

Thank you for posting those links! I've been to the circumstitions website, but I somehow missed the page about Jewish non-cutting ceremonies.

What is most surprising to me is the results of the circumcision poll, that so many people think that every child should be circumcised. I wish there was a way to do a follow-up poll, to know why people support it or oppose it.

-- posted by WillsMom

Top 7. Jun 15, 2004 7:57 PM

» biogardener - No Rabbi

I didn't mention a rabbi in my posting.

You can get the information you are asking me about from the book which I read, and I have listed it in the article which I link above. I know that the revised version of the book is available at Amazon, but I am sure that you can find it at any respectable church library.

As far as the requirement for circumcision on the 8th day, I knew that already as a child from reading it in the Bible. The first time it is mentioned, I believe is in Leviticus 12:3. It is probably also mentioned in the book which I read. Jewish people are all aware of this law and carry it out faithfully. Unfortunately the physicians who perform circumcision in hospitals don't pay attention to it.

-- posted by biogardener

Top 8. Jun 15, 2004 8:52 PM

» WillsMom - Re: No Rabbi

In response to message posted by biogardener:

My mistake! Your message says "minister" but I read "rabbi"!

I also knew about the Jewish requirement of circumcising on the 8th day... what I did not know is that they believed that there is less pain and bleeding on that day, and that's why it is traditionally performed on the 8th day.

I've not yet had the chance to find the book you cited; what is curious to me is that there is recent research which suggests the exact opposite of what the book reports, and based on that research, groups such as the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Medical Assn, do not endorse routine circumcision, saying that there is no significant benefit. The American Cancer Society has even acknowledged that there is no link between penile cancer or cervical cancer and circumcision.

I suppose, since there is a good deal of contradictory information, it all depends on which group of research people choose to believe.

-- posted by WillsMom

Nudity, what does it mean to you?

Top 9. Jun 16, 2004 10:47 PM

» biogardener - Cultural itentity

For my family, circumcision was never an option. A circumcised boy or man would feel like the ugly duckling among his relatives, especially when nudity is not uncommon in the European society in which we grew up.

You may want to write an article on nudity in the family as part of the attachment parenting topic. If you are thinking about it, have a look at my experience. I wrote an article on it. Some people consider it one of the best which I have written. It certainly gets lots of daily hits, and I have received countless requests for permission to link it:

-- posted by biogardener

Top 10. Jun 21, 2004 9:28 PM

» WillsMom - Re: Cultural itentity

In response to message posted by biogardener:

I guess it goes both ways...those that are different from the majority, whether they are circumcised or uncircumcised, are often treated differently. It's a shame that we can't be individuals.

With regard to the article about nudity: that's an interesting idea, though I don't know how wearing clothes (or not wearing clothes) is related to forming a close bond with one's children. Parents can form attachments with their children, regardless of their preferences about nudity. I will consider the article, though, if a connection ever arises. Thanks for the reference to your article.

-- posted by WillsMom

Top 11. Jul 8, 2004 9:40 PM

» hooshootoo - better check again

I have been a writer in a number of medical disciplines for 23 years. I have 2 grown sons and 2 grandsons. All 4 are circumcised.

I know that you have several sources supporting your claim that there is no evidence to support a link between cervical cancer and uncircumcised sex partners. However, that is only PART of the story on that issue and can only "possibly" be true - IF one can guarantee that the man has always had excellent hygiene practices AND fewer than 6 sexual partners in his lifetime. If these near perfect curcumstances exist, then such men have a low enough risk for having been exposed to HPV (the virus believed to cause cervical cancer) to reduce (NOT ELIMINATE) the risk of their female partners' developing cervical cancer by 50%. However, if a man has had 6 or more sexual partners in his lifetime, the risk of cervical cancer for his female sexual partner goes UP by a whopping 48%. Adami H, et al. N Engl J Med 346:1160-1, 11 Apr 2002 Since NObody can "guarantee" that their son will have less than 6 sexual partners in his entire life (or even in his senior year in high school!!!), circumcision (I believe) is the responsible thing to do until we have a vaccine to prevent or cure cervical cancer.

In addition, Cancer Research UK presents 4 risk factors for penile cancer, and 2 of the 4 are specific to uncircumcised men. (May 6, 2003).

-- posted by hooshootoo

Top 12. Jul 19, 2004 5:47 AM

» WillsMom - What Are We Trying to Teach Our Sons?

In response to message posted by hooshootoo:

No one can guarantee anything about anything, really. Yet, the way we raise our children can give us a reasonable expectation of their behavior. If we raise our sons to give in to their every whim and desire, if we teach them that what is most important is doing what feels good to them at the time, if we give them the message that women are there for their pleasure only, and can be used up and thrown away like an old tissue, then we can be reasonably sure that they WILL have more than six sexual partners "...even in his senior year in high school!!" However, if we raise our sons in moral homes, teach them the value of their own bodies and souls, and of women's bodies and souls, then we can be reasonably sure that they will turn out to be young men who do NOT use women for sex and then throw them away the morning's trash.

In my opinion, the responsible thing to do is to raise our sons in a moral way, and NOT to raise them as if we EXPECT them to have six or more sexual partners by the time they're finished with high school. I'm glad that you feel comfortable with your decision to circumcise your sons. I also applaud your desire to protect women from cervical cancer. It is my opinion, though, that raising our sons in a such a way to give them the message that we expect them not to have six sexual partners in their lives not only protects women from cervical cancer, it also protects our daughters from feeling the pressure from their boyfriends to "prove their love" through sexual intercourse, and the heartbreak and feelings of worthlessness (not to mention the feelings that their only worth is as a sexual object for men!) that follows when that boy decides he's done with her and moves on to his next senior year sexual conquest.

-- posted by WillsMom

Top 13. May 22, 2005 4:57 PM

» BenPlonie - Perspective

From my perspective as a (male) Orthodox Jew, this issue is a tempest in a teapot. It is somewhat bemusing to observe the passion the topic evokes among non-Jews.

Among us Jews, the reasons for circumcision have nothing to do with preventing UTI's's, STD's's, cancer, teasing etc., and if I was not Jewish I wouldn't dream of obtaining one. We are in complete agreement about this.

That said, we would have confidence in this as for other religious practices such as kosher laws as a positive health measure at best, and innocuous at worst. According to your own figures, the complication rate of 1 in 200 to 500 is far less than the UTI rate of 1 in 100 to 133, and I leave it to public health specialists as to have confidence in speculative techniques of moral instruction to prevent those other conditions.

But my real point is that while it is a very big deal for us in terms of religion, community, culture, history, affiliation etc., medically and sexually it simply isn't. And there is no need to theorize about this, as there is a significant pool of men who have become circumcised as grown boys or adults, whether to address urological problems or for religious purposes. Universally, they relate (and they would tell you) that they miss seafood (not kosher), but they miss their foreskin not at all, even in terms of sexual sensation.

A small anecdote: I saw a segment of the Donahue show on this topic in which an anti-circ activist presented a passionate and somewhat hysterical case including exhibits, and statements of his resentment at his disfigurement and being cheated of proper sexual sensation etc. A young Latina got up and interrupted in disbelief with the folk wisdom that that man's very obvious problems were very obviously unrelated to his circumcision. Perhaps he blamed his inability to get the right number or quality of women on that.

One more: A Jewish but non-religious co-worker told me that he opposed circumcision on the basis of his sensitivity to suffering of any kind. I asked him "You have two daughters, I understand?" "Yes." "And your wife got their ears pierced?" "Er, ah..." "AHA..."

If you think of circumcision by a qualified practitioner as at least as safe as ear piercing by pink haired, gum chewing Misty at the mall, maybe it would be easier to take.

Again, it should not be done except by Jews (or Moslems, though I won't speak for them.)

-- posted by BenPlonie