Atheist rites
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- IsraelDan
- _Boanerges_
- Atheist13
- _Boanerges_
- IMADAG2
- IMADAG2
- _Boanerges_
- EvilChihuahua
- Atheist13
- disciple14
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» IsraelDan - Re: Re: an intellectual paradox
In response to Re: an intellectual paradox posted by Atheist13:and what does "things which are seen were not made of things which do appear" mean?
Paul is expositing, from his faith, the Biblical truth that our physical world was not created by a created entity, or a being confined to living within our senses.
- Dave
Dan of Israel
-- posted by IsraelDan
» _Boanerges_ - Re: Re: an intellectual paradox
In response to Re: an intellectual paradox posted by Atheist13:Hebrews 11:3 " Through faith, because there is no proof... and what does "things which are seen were not made of things which do appear" mean?
A good question Atheist13... 5 years ago, before accepting Jesus as my Savior, and reading this verse, I too was somewhat confounded by what it was saying.. But really, it is quite easy to understand...
First, you have a two folded question... In this text, Hebrews chapter 11, the subject concerns Faith. The writer is explaining that salvation is accomplished only though faith, as nothing more could be added to this. The writer mentions all the great names starting with Adam to Moses, and even after him, that all these people accepted salvation through faith alone. Not by works, or deeds, or merit, or goodness, etc. So, the first understanding (basis) to this is:
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
The word substance (uJpovstasiß) is tranlated to as: confidence.
So, as you can see, we are not discussing 'blind faith'... We are discussing, evidence... which will equate to 'confidence'. So, in a simple illustration, I will apply this to our morden everyday life... 'The yellow line'.....
We are on a 4 lane road, divided by a solid yellow line painted in the middle. This is the divider line which seperates us. We can call this, 'the law', if you will. You are going south and I am going north. The speed limit given to us is 40 mph. This too we can call the law.
Now, my question for you is: Is your faith, in the 'yellow line'...??... If you stop and think about this, you would (as most do) say yes, my faith is in the yellow line, to keep us seperated. However, we know that people cross this yellow line all the time (they break the law) and as a result, accidents occur. So, as you can see, the 'yellow line' did not stop anyone from crossing it. It is only a visual (empirical) 'marker' which divides us, but.. it does not stop anyone from crossing it. So, what is the hope and what is the evidence. How is our faith revealed?
Simply, our faith is not in this yellow line. It rests in the fact of the unforseen fact of the possiblity of crashing into each other at 80 mph, which would result in the potential for a fatal accident. So our faith is in each other, not to cross this line. The evidence of things hoped for! Why is it evidence? Simply, we both do not want to be fatally injured. The evidence of things 'unseen' is the potential for the fatal accident to occur. So indeed, faith is not blind, it is 'condfident' of it's unseen result.
In like manner, this is one reason why we carry insurance on most things of high value. For the unseen potential for a devestating reuslt. Whether it is car insurance, home or life... These things are all 'uunseen', yet the evidence of it is empirical.
So then, we understand that we speak of faith, hope, evidence in terms of 'eternal' and not that which is 'physical'. In other words, these texts are not teaching us not to go running into each other on the highways. We know this already. It is teaching us of the things that which are 'hoped for'. This is to say, after death.... Eternity..
So then, with this basis, the writer to the Hebrews begins in v3 with creation, as a foundation.
Hewbrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
worlds literally, "ages"; all that exists in time and space, visible and invisible, present and eternal. framed "fitly formed and consolidated"; including the creation of the single parts and the harmonious organization of the whole, and the continual providence which maintains the whole throughout all ages. As creation is the foundation and a specimen of the whole divine economy, so faith in creation is the foundation and a specimen of all faith [BENGEL].
by the word of God not here, the personal word (Greek, "logos," John 1:1) but the spoken word (Greek, "rhema"); though by the instrumentality of the personal word (Hebrews 1:2). not made Translate as Greek, "so that not out of things which appear hath that which is seen been made"; not as in the case of all things which we see reproduced from previously existing and visible materials, as, for instance, the plant from the seed, the animal from the parent, &c., has the visible world sprung into being from apparent materials. So also it is implied in the first clause of the verse that the invisible spiritual worlds were framed not from previously existing materials. BENGEL explains it by distinguishing "appear," that is, begin to be seen (namely, at creation), from that which is seen as already in existence, not merely beginning to be seen; so that the things seen were not made of the things which appear," that is, which begin to be seen by us in the act of creation. We were not spectators of creation; it is by faith we perceive it. Jamieson, Fausset, Brown
I hope this helped some
Sorry for the length..
W...
-- posted by _Boanerges_
» Atheist13 - Re: Re: Re: an intellectual paradox
In response to Re: Re: an intellectual paradox posted by _Boanerges_:Faith is not evidence. Believing does not make it so.
-- posted by Atheist13
» _Boanerges_ - Re: Re: Re: Re: an intellectual paradox
In response to Re: Re: Re: an intellectual paradox posted by Atheist13:Faith is not evidence. Believing does not make it so.
Okie! Whatever you say.... It was nice talking with you Thanks for the chat.... Take care..
W....
-- posted by _Boanerges_
» IMADAG2 - Re: Re: Re: Re: Fear?
In response to Re: Re: Re: Fear? posted by IsraelDan:"an argument indirectly excusing the actions of those who just watched the heinous crime." and lumping me in with most people in the world. Probably insulting given the tone of my post but certainly an incredibly disappointing response from you. What part of my qualification to not objectively dissect as it "..unfairly dilutes your valid point of the inhumanity." did you not understand? I accept it is only one example of inhumanity within US society but for the rest of the world your "rush hour" and "few miles per hour" don't routinely compute in a country of super highways and multi car pile ups and obscene wealth. All the detail that comes from dissection. But that's also not my point!!!!
Please allow the substantive part of my post to go to the keeper.
-- posted by IMADAG2
» IMADAG2 - Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Fear?
In response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Fear? posted by _Boanerges_:"yawn.. for the umpteent time
btw>> how ya been Jeff?.."
:(
I for one did not intend to continue insults. Sorry for entering your domain. I was actually getting some good stuff from various topics but I can do without the angst to get it.
-- posted by IMADAG2
» _Boanerges_ - Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Fear?
In response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Fear? posted by IMADAG2:I for one did not intend to continue insults. Sorry for entering your domain. I was actually getting some good stuff from various topics but I can do without the angst to get it.
Is that an absoulte Well, can't say I'm sorry you feel that way! You have always felt that way ..lol.. So, who are you kidding? It's really a tuff world out here, Jeff..
btw>> how ya been?... ruff ruff
W....
-- posted by _Boanerges_
» EvilChihuahua - Re: Re: Re: Re: an intellectual paradox
In response to Re: Re: Re: an intellectual paradox posted by Atheist13:"Faith is not evidence. Believing does not make it so."
I agree. Everyone has faith in something, even Atheists. Just look at the 6 basic concepts of Evolution-
1. Cosmic Evolution: ie. The Big Bang.
2. Chemical Evolution: Higher elements evolve.
3. Evolution of stars and planets from gas.
4. Organic evolution: Life from rocks.
5. Macro-evolution: Changes between kinds of plants and animals.
6. Micro-evolution: Changes within kinds.
However only the latter has been observed and can be called "science". The other 5 are all based on faith, or "blind faith", if you will. Nobody has seen any of these happen. At least the events in the Bible were documented.
Oh well, I cannot make you believe me. Plus you probably believe that my beliefs are "blind faith", so we should agree to disagree.
-- posted by EvilChihuahua
» Atheist13 - Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: an intellectual paradox
In response to Re: Re: Re: Re: an intellectual paradox posted by TheJesusFreak:They are based on theories, which dictionary.com defines as, "A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena". It's what's "most likely" the case, but further observations and experiments are needed to prove their theory, then it becomes a scientific law.
-- posted by Atheist13
» disciple14 - Re: Re: an intellectual paradox
God CREATED the heavens and the earthcreated= making something out of nothing
-- posted by disciple14
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