Some thoughts

Top 22. Aug 12, 2005 7:42 AM

» spiritalk - Re: Re: Re: natural law

In response to Re: Re: natural law posted by bossel:

And if their religion (or lack thereof) were examined...how many would be atheists? how many would have a Christian following? how many a following of any of the big 3 (Islam, Jewish, Christianity).

God bless, J

-- posted by spiritalk

Top 23. Aug 12, 2005 7:26 PM

» hawknut - Re: Re: Re: natural law

In response to Re: Re: natural law posted by bossel:

Do you have any valid statistics that atheism causes suicides & to what degree? AFAIK, 90-95 % of suicides are related to mental health, not to some philosophy.

I wouldn't say atheism 'causes' suicide (or attempts), but read this study summary:

Religious Affiliation and Suicide Attempt
Kanita Dervic, M.D., Maria A. Oquendo, M.D., Michael F. Grunebaum, M.D., Steve Ellis, Ph.D., Ainsley K. Burke, Ph.D., and J. John Mann, M.D.

OBJECTIVE: Few studies have investigated the association between religion and suicide either in terms of Durkheim’s social integration hypothesis or the hypothesis of the regulative benefits of religion. The relationship between religion and suicide attempts has received even less attention.

METHOD: Depressed inpatients (N=371) who reported belonging to one specific religion or described themselves as having no religious affiliation were compared in terms of their demographic and clinical characteristics.

RESULTS: Religiously unaffiliated subjects had significantly more lifetime suicide attempts and more first-degree relatives who committed suicide than subjects who endorsed a religious affiliation. Unaffiliated subjects were younger, less often married, less often had children, and had less contact with family members. Furthermore, subjects with no religious affiliation perceived fewer reasons for living, particularly fewer moral objections to suicide. In terms of clinical characteristics, religiously unaffiliated subjects had more lifetime impulsivity, aggression, and past substance use disorder. No differences in the level of subjective and objective depression, hopelessness, or stressful life events were found.

CONCLUSIONS: Religious affiliation is associated with less suicidal behavior in depressed inpatients. After other factors were controlled, it was found that greater moral objections to suicide and lower aggression level in religiously affiliated subjects may function as protective factors against suicide attempts. Further study about the influence of religious affiliation on aggressive behavior and how moral objections can reduce the probability of acting on suicidal thoughts may offer new therapeutic strategies in suicide prevention.

Am J Psychiatry 161:2303-2308, December 2004
© 2004 ...
http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/cont...

-- posted by hawknut

Top 24. Aug 12, 2005 10:46 PM

» bossel - The study

In response to Re: Re: Re: natural law posted by hawknut:

Well, thanks for the link. Aside from the fact that the study is hardly representative, there are some other flaws. Eg. there is no differentiation between religion, religiosity & spirituality, & it is not really defined what "no religious affiliation" means.
Furthermore, they focus on suicide attempts, not suicide. Since, IIRC, most suicide attempts are committed without the actual wish to die, this is a major flaw.

Anyway, that there is less prevalence of suicide attempts & a generally better feeling about themselves, even sometimes better health, among people with a certain religiosity & spirituality has been shown by several studies. But (a big but) that does not show any adverse effects of atheism.
AFAIK, what most of those studies showed was that if you have a more relaxed attitude towards life &/or used some form of meditation you have a better chance of good physical & mental health. Therefore it's not the religiosity/spirituality (mind you, the affiliation to any particular religion seems rather irrelevant) as such, but more the overall attitude.

There is no study I know of that showed any negative influence of atheism.

-- posted by bossel

Top 25. Aug 13, 2005 5:28 AM

» Pinky102 - John Hoh

In response to Just a few posted by H2O:

Hey, John!

I read your first post in this thread.

While it is interesting and seems to be a response to some article or other post, it isn't anchored to anything as far as I can see.

Am I missing something?

-- posted by Pinky102

Top 26. Aug 13, 2005 6:54 AM

» spiritalk - Re: Re: natural law

In response to Re: natural law posted by TheJesusFreak:

The more society advocates a disposable world - the more we will experience suicides and people (every age) with a lack of motivation. When anyone believes they have all the answers - its time to seek some new questions. When we have it all - life ends. And perhaps that is what our youth are being taught?

God bless, J

-- posted by spiritalk

Top 27. Aug 13, 2005 10:07 AM

» hawknut - Re: The study - off topic

In response to The study posted by bossel:

Aside from the fact that the study is hardly representative, there are some other flaws.

Unfortunately, I can't present any of this study's details that might address these flaws.

Furthermore, they focus on suicide attempts, not suicide.

Imagine the difficulty conducting an interview with those who were successful in their attempts. smile

Since, IIRC, most suicide attempts are committed without the actual wish to die, this is a major flaw.

I believe most unsuccessful attempts are actually method failures. Without intervention, the attempter will find a successful method eventually. Perhaps the survivors merely say they didn't really want to die (tell the docs what they want to hear) so they wouldn't be hospitalized indefinitely? Who knows.

that there is less prevalence of suicide attempts & a generally better feeling about themselves, even sometimes better health, among people with a certain religiosity & spirituality has been shown by several studies.

So, can one conclude the opposite is correct:
'there is more prevalence of suicide attempts & a generally worse feeling about themselves, even sometimes worse health, among people without certain religiousity & spirituality?'

There is no study I know of that showed any negative influence of atheism.

I don't know of any study either. It would be interesting to do one, no? The sampling would be small enough.

-- posted by hawknut

Top 28. Aug 13, 2005 3:21 PM

» bossel - Re: Re: The study - off topic

In response to Re: The study - off topic posted by hawknut:

"Imagine the difficulty conducting an interview with those who were successful in their attempts."
But most of those have a history of mental illness & according therapy. Hence there should be some material to go by (how representative that is, I don't know).

"I believe most unsuccessful attempts are actually method failures. Without intervention, the attempter will find a successful method eventually. Perhaps the survivors merely say they didn't really want to die (tell the docs what they want to hear) so they wouldn't be hospitalized indefinitely?"
IIRC, most failed suicide attempts did so because the people really didn't want to die, but get attention. They take pills just before someone is about to come home (well, expectedly, sometimes this probably goes wrong & the suicide attempt succeeds) or they call a relative "I'm about to commit suicide!" before they try.

The survivors usually do not say that they didn't want to die, for that would run counter to their aim of getting attention.

-- posted by bossel

Top 29. Aug 13, 2005 6:23 PM

» hawknut - Re: Re: Re: The study - off topic

In response to Re: Re: The study - off topic posted by bossel:

"Imagine the difficulty conducting an interview with those who were successful in their attempts." I guess my feeble attempt at humor failed. Sorry.

Are you a suicide survivor yourself, Bossel? JesusFreak is. I wonder how many posters here have a history of attempted suicide.

Pardon my ignorance... what does IIRC mean?

-- posted by hawknut

Top 30. Aug 13, 2005 8:04 PM

» bossel - Re: Re: Re: Re: The study - off topic

In response to Re: Re: Re: The study - off topic posted by hawknut:

Sorry, but I'm notorious for failing on the humour side of life.

No suicide survivor here. Although there were times I thought about it, I never really planned it & never came close to attempt it. Simply wouldn't make sense to me to commit suicide.

IIRC is an abbreviation for "If I Remember Correctly". I thought, it was rather common netslang (although I learned it myself only some months ago, hmm?).

-- posted by bossel