Vocare Talk: Empowerment

Top 2. Apr 10, 2000 8:03 PM

» andimac - rock worn by water...

Hey, there... sorry for the hiatus, but I've been busy with Life Stuff. I'm back, though!

Shiloh: how interesting about the oxygen question. I had heard that scientists were able to make nucleic acids after some 20-year-long accidental experiments, but I hadn't heard that there was a question about how oxygen was formed. I always thought it was a given that it existed, like any other element. Can you go into this more?

>Secondly I would make another observation: the path of least resistance can itself be empowering, and I believe the Anglican/Episcopal church, or significant factions within it, agree with this. If one is predisposed toward homosexuality or bisexuality, the path of least resistance is to follow that disposition, not to try to become straight. Following this path of least resistance is acknowledged by many in the Anglican/Episcopalian community as vital for real personal growth, is it not?<

Well, I'd hardly say that the Anglican communion, or the Episcopal Church in particular, is in agreement on whether sexual orientation is a "given" gift or personal characteristic given by God. If one were to see the resolutions that came out of Lambeth at the last big-kahunas meeting in '98, you'd think the Anglican communion as a whole believed homosexuals were sinners and women had no place in the role of clergy. The largest numbers of Anglicans come from Africa, where the church is growing the fastest, and in those areas Biblical interpretation is more conservative and literal than one would find in the Episcopal church in the USA (you all should read Mike's news thing about the irregular bishops who were consecrated in January).

But even in the Episcopal Church there is great strife over this issue, and whole dioceses are threatening to split from the church because they oppose women's ordination and the inclusion of homosexuals in clergy roles. I honestly don't know who is in the majority, but there definitely are conservative parishes in all areas of the country.

And so to get back to your observation, Shiloh, of the "path of least resistance", how does a parish who is considering the implications of blessing a gay union, for instance, handle this path? There are certainly social struggles in regard to this question, not to mention personal stuggles. If one believes one is gay, but lives or works in an extremely conservative social stucture, which is easier, to pretend one is straight, or openly proclaim being gay? Admitting to one's true self, no matter what that may mean besides sexual orientation, can often be the scariest and lonliest road to travel. And sometimes even the church is not prepared to handle that, unfortunately.

I suppose this is where the Holy Spirit comes in... it is not bound by social structure or politics; a close relationship with God can fill in where the human structures fail. And to be honest, I don't think the church could ever say that its role is to be able to provide in every single way imaginable to its people; we each are responsible to God in our own way, we each must recognize our own gifts and make the effort to grow spiritually and interpersonally. The church can give us guidance and support us with some structure, but at the end of the day it's just us and God -- just us and the holy spirit.

Whoah, that's too long for one night. smile Thanks for listening.

peace,

Andi
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-- posted by andimac

Top 3. Apr 11, 2000 10:11 AM

» shiloh - breathing and marriage

>>I had heard that scientists were able to make nucleic acids after some 20-year-long accidental experiments, but I hadn't heard that there was a question about how oxygen was formed. I always thought it was a given that it existed, like any other element. Can you go into this more?<<

There's some debate over oxygen. It always existed in some amounts. But James Kasting and others believe oxygen levels in earth's early atmosphere were 1 millionth the present atmospheric level, and increased "overnight" (at least in geological terms) to their present levels about 2 billion years ago. If, how, and why are still hotly debated.

I also find it interesting that in Genesis God is supposed to have formed Adam out of the dust. Scientifically speaking, peptides and nucleic acids form on hot rocks or clay by spontaneously bonding with catalysts in the clay. Early life forms were most likely autotrophs (living organisms which feed on themselves), and one could of course draw comparisons with Eve having been formed out of Adam himself, Cain killing his own flesh and blood, etc.

>>And so to get back to your observation, Shiloh, of the "path of least resistance", how does a parish who is considering the implications of blessing a gay union, for instance, handle this path?<<

"You will be hated by all because of my name, but whoever endures to the end will be saved." -- Matthew 10:22

I'd say a church who backs away from blessing a gay union because of conservative "community standards" is spitting in the face of Christ.

Shiloh

-- posted by shiloh

Top 4. Apr 12, 2000 8:14 PM

» andimac - "What would Jesus do?"

Re: creation stuff: I personally find it fascinating that I don't require a literal existence of Biblical explanations for events of cosmic significance and yet sometimes science does point to something that our Biblical mythos explicitly stated. Which I guess relates to the other discussion I didn't realize was happening... if it doesn't die out soon, I have some quotes I might throw into the fray over there another time.

But briefly, yeah, I totally agree with you, personally, about gay unions. I am only stating that the church structure, as it is, is made by humans and isn't immediately responsive to human spiritual needs. It's like an aircraft carrier trying to turn on a dime. And in the meantime, while, say, this couple is struggling to make sense of their relationship and give it holy meaning, they can nurture their relationship with God in a personal sense, invite the holy spirit in, and remain in that presence knowing they are whole. The church who would like to serve these people,however, has to struggle with what they feel Christ would want them to do, while there may be a far larger force who also feels they are doing what Christ would want them to do, which opposes them. And therefore, the Anglican/Episcopal church has a far more complex struggle with the "path of least resistance" than simply allowing people to discover themselves and nurture their God-given talents.

But back to your first post, I don't think, really, that becoming more whole and centered in yourself and your relationship with God is anything that comes free and easy. In order to discover one's true self one has to be willing to dig deep, discover the awful truths as well as the hidden gems, and that's scary.

Anyway, late, must sleep. smile

peace,

Andi

-- posted by andimac

Top 5. Apr 13, 2000 11:45 AM

» shiloh - diminishing returns

When I hear of a church with poor attendance my thought is, "That must be a good church." I think of the scene in Ghandi where the Anglican priest starts talking about the questions raised by Ghandi and the English treatment of India and Indians -- and most of the people get up and walk out on him. One thing the gospels are definitely right about: most people don't want to hear a message of genuine worth. So a church with poor attendance must be preaching a meaningful message. A full church is actually quite vacant.

I agree that to discover one's true self one has to be willing to dig deep. But is discovering oneself the same as discovering God? One analogy I've heard is that if someone is crying out, "God, God, where are you?" they won't hear God whispering, "Here I am." If they would just stop trying to find him they might find him. In other words, one doesn't realize that one's attempt to get over the resistance to knowing God is precisely the resistance itself. One has to stop trying in order to succeed. It has been suggested to me that this is why I fail. My response is that I'd rather know myself than know God; I'm unwilling to give up the fighting, clawing, scratching which is neceesary to uncover myself, even if it keeps me from knowing God. I'm not living God's life, I'm living my life, and I refuse to spend it looking for somebody else instead of for myself.

Shiloh

-- posted by shiloh

Top 6. Apr 13, 2000 8:15 PM

» Morpharama - Gays and more gays

I think that as homosexuality becomes more mainstream, we're going to discover just how much society as a whole is enriched by their presence. The gay lifestyle has long been a subculture, and these days it appears that Lesbigays are not going to stay on the margin anymore. In the near future it will be difficult to label any lifestyle "alternative."

That said, I find the Lambeth resolution explicitly hypocritical. The resolution affirms that baptized, believing homosexuals are full members of the Body of Christ. It then says that they must be denied marriage and ordination. How can they say that one can be a member in good standing of the chruch, and yet be denied its sacraments? I find this position inherently hypocritical and intolerably un-Christian.

Via media,

-- posted by Morpharama