Alienation

Top 6. Feb 6, 2000 9:05 AM

» Morpharama - Families

It sounds like you are saying something like families are the root of evil; only the individual self can ever be pure. If I'm interpreting this correctly, I'm extremely dismayed.

I understand what you mean about popular exploitation of the family. Many of those who are making a big fuss about "family" define it as a two parent, middle class, midwest Protestant white family. Nuclear mom, dad, Becky, and Brent living in Pleasantville, Indiana seem to be the epitome of the current drive to return to the family. We of course know that all families just don't look like this.

What I don't understand is this isolationist rhetoric I'm reading.

Each of us, within ourselves, has been given all that we need to survive.

I certainly don't feel that way. I might agree that I have the capacity to seek out that which I need to survive. My spirit, so far as I have been able to discern, requires communion with a community of seekers.

Yesterday at the Masonic Temple in Detroit, the Episcopal Diocese of Michigan consecrated the Rev. Wendell N. Gibbs, Jr. the 10th Bishop of Michigan. I mention as a matter of record that Bishop Gibbs is an African American. Bishop Gibbs is a black bishop in a church that is 97% white.

I was a cross-bearer in the altar-party. I lead the part of the procession comprised of the priests and deacons of the diocese. At the request of the bishop-elect, part of the opening procession was accompanied by African drumming. We danced down the aisles toward the altar on the stage. Danced! In church! With twenty bishops in attendance! This could never have happened fifty years ago. (For photos, go here.)

As I said, the consecration was held at the massive and amazingly gorgeous Detroit Masonic Temple. Do you wonder why this service was held in the Masonic Temple and not in the cathedral? It's because the cathedral isn't big enough to hold all the people that came to share in this celebration. Our church leaders wanted to make sure that every person who wanted to come and be a part of this occasion would be able to do so. Nobody was turned away. The church family was the first consideration.

When our new bishop began to lead us in the Nicene Creed, I had a visceral response. We believe in one God... I felt it in my gut and in my soul that right here, right now, I am with God. I have these feelings all the time as I move forward on my journey with God. It's like a slowly building energy. As I continue to commune with Christ, I am filled up and healed.

I'm not able to convey the truth of this experience through this medium. I almost think all discussion on the matter is futile. It transcends our forms of communication.

Via media,

-- posted by Morpharama

Top 7. Feb 6, 2000 7:41 PM

» shiloh - feelings and discernment

>>My spirit, so far as I have been able to discern, requires communion with a community of seekers.<<

How were you able to discern this? ("Discern", of course, comes from the Latin "to separate"...)

>>When our new bishop began to lead us in the Nicene Creed, I had a visceral response. We believe in one God... I felt it in my gut and in my soul that right here, right now, I am with God.<<

Two questions:

1. Have you never felt this while alone?

2. It's great that you felt good about the "We believe in one God" part... But how did you feel when you said, "He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead"? Same feeling? If not, why do you still say it? And what does that say about your Christian family? Just curious. I don't think your 'family' is all its cracked up to be. Mine wasn't either. I can't fight the good fight anymore. That's why I disowned those bastards.

Shiloh

-- posted by shiloh

Top 8. Feb 7, 2000 5:39 AM

» Morpharama - Questions

1. Have you never felt this while alone?

Sure I have. All the time. I was simply recounting one experience of many that was very powerful for me. The sensation of We in the presence of so many believers was deeply moving.

2. It's great that you felt good about the "We believe in one God" part... But how did you feel when you said, "He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead"? Same feeling?

Not quite the same feeling as the visceral "We," but I have no problem with that phrase. My understanding of judgment is of a Judaic bent; it does not have a negative connotation for me.

I don't think your 'family' is all its cracked up to be. Mine wasn't either. I can't fight the good fight anymore. That's why I disowned those bastards.

I guess I just don't have any illustions that my family is or is supposed to be perfect. Classic American Puritan theology tells us that the flesh is weak. Humans are fallible. We should expect it rather than hold ourselves to impossible standards. Otherwise we are guilty of our own judgment.

Via media,

-- posted by Morpharama

Top 9. Feb 7, 2000 9:21 AM

» shiloh - one other thing, before I start boring you

>>What I don't understand is this isolationist rhetoric I'm reading.<<

Maybe you're not reading it right, then.

That "We" which so moved you should not have. Unless you believe that there is a fundamental difference between "we" and "I". Only if an "I" exists can "we" be a moving sentiment. It is your statement, not mine, which is isolationist and lonely.

It's impossible to be isolationist if there is no difference. And it's impossible for Jesus to judge, even in some benign Judaic sense rather than a Puritan fire and brimstone sense, unless there is a difference between individuals. On the other hand, if we are all of the same essence, if God is everywhere, there can be no judging by Jesus in any sense of the word "judge" (i.e. the Creed is simply wrong), and there can be no isolationism. The only thing standing between you and a disregard for churches is a failure to perceive that there is no "I". Once you perceive that you can never not be in communion with fellow seekers you will see things differently. Through God you are always with everyone. If there's any real need to physically meet somewhere, then the God this group of people are seeking simply does not exist. Only if there is no need to gather together using our pitiful cars, buses, and legs can the God you are seeking exist.

Shiloh

-- posted by shiloh

Top 10. Feb 7, 2000 1:51 PM

» Dan_Ellsworth - A fairly large principle proposed

Shiloh, let's see if I have this right: Any faith which acknowledges any need to gather in physical proximity is false?

I'm reading the end of your message and trying to rephrase it accurately. If I got it right, it is a proposal for a major principle with which to examine religions. So I need to proceed carefully here.

I don't know about Mike, but I am not bored yet. Nor lonely. But I'd better let Mike state his own situation.

-- posted by Dan_Ellsworth

Top 11. Feb 7, 2000 6:23 PM

» shiloh - Dan

>>Any faith which acknowledges any need to gather in physical proximity is false?<<

Yes. We're talking about the needs of faith here, not the needs of social animals (which human beings also are).

If you have a social need to be around other people, that's perfectly normal.

If you believe God is an entity which has an existence separate from that of human beings, which Christianity teaches (or else, why does no one call me Jesus or pray to me?), and you believe that in order to get close to this separate entity known as God you have a "need" to be close to precisely those beings from which God is distinct, you have a serious, fatal flaw in the faith. It makes no sense whatsoever.

Now, can you satisfy a social need -- being around other people -- at the same time as you satisfy a spiritual need -- being close to God? Only you can answer that question. It will vary by individual. But you cannot say with any reason that those two needs are one and the same, unless you believe that God and human beings are identical (in which case, I will be taking prayers Friday at 3 p.m. eastern time, my son.)

Think about some of the things that have happened when people confuse social needs (being around people like you) and spiritual needs (being close to God)... "Black people are born to be slaves. It says so right in the Bible." "Jews are the agents of the devil. It says so right in the Bible." When culture, which comes from and which fuels social needs and social needs alone, becomes misidentified with the needs of the spiritual seeker, which come only from within the individual human conscience, then the result you get is a bunch of people doing purely banal (and often bigoted) social things while thinking all the while that they're getting close to God. This is, always has been, and always will be bad news.

Shiloh

-- posted by shiloh

Top 12. Feb 7, 2000 7:06 PM

» Dan_Ellsworth - The distinction is sound conceptually, between social needs and

The distinction is sound conceptually, between social needs and spiritual needs. However, I have not been called to an exclusively solitary relationship with God. "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." Matthew 18:20

There is also the instruction to pray in the "closet", so it's not a purely social thing either.

That the external patterns of worship and fellowship can be mis-used, I have no doubt. That mis-use proves something is inherently wrong or false, I have only doubt.

-- posted by Dan_Ellsworth

Top 13. Feb 7, 2000 7:34 PM

» shiloh - When are we alone? And the "We" mentality

Dan, you quote an interesting passage: "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."

This makes me wonder... Is there any moment during which your awareness of your parents, friends, etc. is as if you never knew them? Can you actually ever pray or be alone in a real sense?

Now, as to one of Mike's earlier posts, where he talked about the power of the "we" in reciting "We believe in one God..." with a congregation, here's an excerpt from an article on the why's of committing atrocities by Olugbenga O. Mejabi:

What then accounts for the mob mentality? It is probably accurate to say that the mob mentality phenomenon depends on rage, susceptibility to suggestion and manipulation, and group co-dependency (as manifest in tribalism and even extreme patriotism). It is also necessary to indicate that, in fact, the relationship between mob mentality and susceptibility to suggestion and manipulation, is mutually causal. An increase in mob mentality will cause an increase in susceptibility to suggestion and manipulation, but an increase in susceptibility to suggestion and manipulation will also cause an increase in mob mentality. [This might help clarify some of that doubt you have about the mere existence of "instances" of the mis-use of group situations, Dan.] This mutual dependency phenomenon is important to understanding dynamic systems, because they show how things can easily spiral out of control. Another mutual dependency exists between mob mentality and group co-dependency, making our model even more complex and interesting.

...A sense of entitlement is always a rejection of our spiritual self sufficiency.

Interestingly, a sense of entitlement, susceptibility to suggestion, and group co-dependency all sit solidly on a bedrock of powerlessness. The relationship between susceptibility to suggestion and powerlessness is mutually causal. In other words, an increase in powerlessness will result in an increase in susceptibility to suggestion while an increase in susceptibility to suggestion will also cause an increase in powerlessness. Another loop! Also, the relationship between group co-dependency and powerlessness is mutually causal. In other words, an increase in powerlessness will result in an increase group co-dependency while an increase in group co-dependency will also cause an increase in powerlessness. Yet another loop!

Finally, we may speculate as to the cause of powerlessness. Well, we may say it is something like spiritual immaturity. When we mature spiritually, we start to understand how powerful we truly are.

We must... confront our powerlessness, and then work on our tendency for susceptibility to suggestion, group co-dependency, and sense of entitlement. This will cure our fear and rage, and we will be less likely to be found in a mob, and therefore there will be fewer atrocities in this our world. This is the cure for which we search.

-- posted by shiloh

Top 14. Feb 7, 2000 9:15 PM

» Morpharama - Have we reached an impasse yet?

I don't know. But I am not bored, and I shall not yield. Onward!

I decided to look for the courage to believe what you are saying is true. I decided that if I couldn't do that then my own arguments carried no more weight than the flat earth theory.

So let's see if I'm on track. If I follow you correctly, God has given me everything I need to commune with him. No intermediaries are required, and in fact they are antithesis to God's withinness.

If I'm still in the right place, then let me examime for a minute what God has given me. Actually it's only one thing: love. Love is everything. There is no denying Jesus' teaching on this. Every good thing God has given me is an expression of love. Every good thing I do with God is an expression of love. Every good thing God does around me is an expression of love.

I can feel God in love, and I can feel love in God. What's the bumper sticker say, "God is love"? Anywhere/time/place I feel love, God is. I feel love in the church, and I feel God in the church. The church is not God, but God is in the church. God is not by any measure the only thing in the church, but God is the only thing in the church that matters, as love is the only thing in the world that matters. All the rest is just details.

Via media,

-- posted by Morpharama