On Prayer
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- shiloh
- Morpharama
- shiloh
- mariomartin
- shiloh
- Morpharama
- shiloh
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» shiloh - enough of tests
I like the Cycle of Prayer idea. And I'm glad you don't mind saying a Hail Mary or two every now and then.
The Bible does, after all, say that all generations will call her blessed. This means you! LOL! After all, who was the first person (besides Mary) to recognize Jesus? John the Baptist. But he couldn't talk at the time. He could, however, bounce around a bit; and so his mother Elizabeth was clued in. And what did she say? "Oh, it's the savior!" Nope. She immediately mentions Mary first. "Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?"First of all, lays to waste the view widely held among some Protestants that we shouldn't call Mary the Mother of God. But secondly, and more importantly, it highlights an important facet of prayer itself in my view, from the Christian perspective. Sometimes, especially in Mary's case, the human beings come first. Why? Because it's so very important to remember where Jesus came from in a complete and total sense: from both God and woman (mankind if you don't like gender inequity guys). The beauty of Christianity is that Jesus was fully human, fully divine; but we forget the fully human part sometimes. And if prayer is to be Christian prayer, we don't need to forget the fully human part, even when we pray. Remembering Jesus's origins reminds us of the power of God, the love of God, that God elevates humanity by his grace. Thus, ave Maria, gratia plena, dominus tecum.
It's almost like a Cycle of Prayer all on its own.
Shiloh
-- posted by shiloh
» Morpharama - Protestants vs. Mary
Protestants have a hard time with Mary and I can only guess why. She's quite a paradox to them, it would seem. She's a mortal human being, yet she gives birth to God. Simple (human) logic says that to give birth to an entity, the mother must be of the same species as her offspring, right? So how is that a human can give birth to God without being divine herself? And how does that work in a monotheistic religion? Throw in the immaculate conception and we have another generation of a miraculous mortal mother. All this mystery has the Protestants shaking their heads and saying, "Mary was but a vessel. She was no more sinless or perfect than any of us. We shouldn't elevate her to a position higher than that of any other person assciated with Jesus' life. In fact, we'd better downplay her role a bit so that we don't have to confront just how unique and unparalled a role it was/is."I don't buy into the Protestant ignorance of Mary any more than I buy into the "co-redemptrix" campaign of Mother Angelica and Cardinal Ratzinger. Mary is special and deserves veneration, not deification.
Via media,
-- posted by Morpharama
» shiloh - logic?
>>Simple (human) logic says that to give birth to an entity, the mother must be of the same species as her offspring, right?<<Mike... Don't tell me we're now to apply simple human logic to religion! Especially to the Bible! There's nothing logical about it. "How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?" The whole thing is illogical, for simple human logic tells us a woman has to have sex in order to get pregnant, doesn't it?
Something tells me that when we pray, we'd best leave logic out of it entirely. She moves in mysterious ways, as Bono said.
Shiloh
-- posted by shiloh
» mariomartin - Co-redemptors
I think we're all co-redemptors. By virtue of the Communion of Saints we can help or hinder each other. St Paul in Col.1:24 talks of suffering for others and the Vatican Catechism # 953 has several other references from St Paul in the same sense.I don't know in what sense Cardinal Ratzinger or Mother Angelica see Mary as co-redemptrice but I see her in that role as a special human being.I'd say the same for John the Baptist because of Mt.11:11.
To me,calling mere human beings co-redemptors brings out the fact that we all are forces for good or evil and not islands to ourselves.I think it's easy, and somtimes an easy way out,to forget this.
That's my two cents worth.
-- posted by mariomartin
» shiloh - I agree
We're all co-redeemers or co-redemtrixes in our salvation, according to traditional Christian philosophy, precisely because it requires an active participation on our part. Mary as THE co-redemtrix I always took to mean simply that she did the "fallen human" part best, she's the best example to follow of any mere mortal. I don't think it means she's a co-redemtrix for me or anyone else, except in the Communion of Saints realm, where the prayers of one person for another are said to help.But I think there's just as much a dividing line between Anglicans and fundamentalists as there is between Catholics and fundamentalists on the issue of participating in one's own salvation -- fundamentalists tending to take the position that God/Jesus does all the work, that there's no active participation required on our part, you're simply born again or you're not and whatever you do on this earth makes no difference to that fact. Hence, Martin Luther tried to 86 the whole book of James from the Bible, because it has that annoying part in it about "faith without works is dead", implying that what we do here on earth does indeed count for something with regards to one's salvation.
Shiloh
-- posted by shiloh
» Morpharama - Logic revisited
I'm not trying to apply this logic to religion. It is ludicrous, I agree. I'm talking about your garden variey WASP who only gives religion a thought at Christmas, Easter and funerals.Via media,
-- posted by Morpharama
» shiloh - LOL!
Anywho...Do you think that the rise of prayer consciousness, as opposed to good works consciousness, has anything to do with the perceived futility of good works in a world that's so huge, so complex, so fractured and with so few obvious points of commonality between people? Is there a desire to retreat into prayer the more the unwelcome realization of how little power we have to help people sets in? Is prayer more and more the marijuana of the disaffected Christian counter-culture? Prayer hippies?
Shiloh the anti-Luther cries, "Panis solus!"
-- posted by shiloh
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