The Changing Christology
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- Minnie
- Minnie
- shiloh
- DrThomas
- shiloh
- DrThomas
- shiloh
- shiloh
- DrThomas
- DebraJean
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» Minnie - The point of a literal resurrection
Shiloh, You said ”What is the point of a literal resurrection of Jesus anyway? Same as a virgin birth, isn't it? To "prove" that what people want to believe is worth believing?Isn't that precisely what faith is not supposed to be about? Proof?
I think if Jesus's message was real, then the resurrection was most likely not real. Why would he spend his time preaching about faith and then feel it necessary to offer physical proof?
My answer would be that Jesus Christ’s literal resurrection shows the awesome fairness of God. Even with the virgin birth, the resurrection, and all the miracles, there are some who don’t “believe”. All through the ages, God showed mankind enough “proof” to believe in Him.
All men are given a measure of faith. Even that is a gift from God. Then faith grows by consistent hearing of scripture. Most people have enough faith to believe, but what they sometimes aren’t willing to give up is their own way of trying to get their needs met. Saving faith includes repentance and a willingness to yield to God.
Jesus’ message was real, as is the literal resurrection. I believe God gives every person more than sufficient “proof” to believe. It really shows God’s character, when He spends so much effort and time for His creation. Patient parents totally understand God’s wisdom and purpose in giving children every chance to get the picture. I don’t recall anywhere in the Bible saying that God felt it “necessary” to give physical proof. God does things consistent with who He is, while allowing each person free will to make decisions. God’s nature is agape love.
-- posted by Minnie
» Minnie - The Bible is Truth
Shiloh, you said, ”Besides, how many Christians actually believe what the Bible says about life after death anyway? What's supposed to happen, according to the Bible, is that when you die you're dead. Worm food. At some point Christ returns, then people are resurrected, and some eventually do get into heaven after that. But the vast majority of Christians act like when someone dies "they're in heaven with God now". Well, not if you believe the freakin' Bible! If you believe the Bible they're lifeless in the grave until the second coming.Just one more thing about Christianity in practice that doesn't make any sense.
Many people misunderstood key words in the Bible, and therefor missed the intended message.
“Dead” is one of those words. It can mean physical death or spiritual death. Most Christians that I know believe that they will be in the presence of God, the minute after they die, because of Paul’s teachings. There are also some who believe that Christians are already seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. (probably memorized scripture). What I didn’t realize until just recently is that the real part of a person is spirit. We just have “earthsuits” to contain the real part of us. What scripture were you referring to that states people are “lifeless in the grave until the second coming”?
Oh yes, the parable of the beggar in Abraham's bosom, shows life after "death" before Christ's resurrection. Only after Christ "died", could anyone enter past the veil.
You seem to have a lot of Bible knowledge. I spent devoted decades in Bible Studies before starting to understand. I commend you for contributing your opinions, and helping us all seek deeper truth!
-- posted by Minnie
» shiloh - bodily resurrection
The suite is being a pain, so I will try to repost this, not really knowing if my first post got through or not...Anglicans say the same creed Catholics say. "We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come."
Christ's physical resurrection is the model for what Christians are supposed to expect: life after bodily death as resurrection in the flesh.
Look at Revelation chapters 20 and 21. This forms the basis of Christian life after death philosophy.
We read of a new heaven and a new earth. And we read that souls do not go up to dwell with God in heaven -- rather God comes down and dwells with the resurrected faithful on earth, where there will be no more bodily death or pain, because people will have perfect, immortal bodies.
The Christian idea of life after death (at least the Christians' idea that actually comes from the Bible) is inseperable from the idea of bodily resurrection. Before the second coming Christians await a new life -- and they get that new life complete with a new body. The idea that the body is just a dispensible vessel for the soul does not come from the Bible. The Bible teaches that when God is ready to give new life to the faithful who have died, he will do so by giving them new bodies and coming down to live with them in the flesh forever on earth, not in heaven.
Paul's idea that the dearly departed dwell with the Lord is more the idea that God remembers them, he remembers who will be among the chosen when he brings everyone back to life in the flesh. They are not forgotten, and their eventual eternal reward is ensured.
Shiloh
-- posted by shiloh
» DrThomas - The Changing Christology
Scripture References:St. John 3:16 - Passion
St. John 17 - Passion
St. Matthew 28:18-26 - Promise.
Has the message and the intent of Jesus message changed in the Mind of God? I don't think so.
May be the 21st century will bring a spiritual breakthrough in mankind's attitudes, conduct and understanding of himself, God and all creation.
Whole People of God lectionary reminds us of God eternal passion to be involved in the affairs of mankind and his promise to be our God and that we would be His people. This passion and promise is for each person and all people.
To me Thomas Merton summarizes Jesus' Christology beautifully. "Christ is really present in us, more present than if He were standing before us visible to our bodily eyes, for we have become 'other Christs'. If we believe in the incarnation of the Son of God, there should be no one on earth in whom we are not prepared to see, in mystery, the Christ."
Is it possible that Jesus' message of salvation is more about waking up from a soul state of spiritual blindness and spiritual death than about physical bodily resurrection?
Is there any place for the allegorical interpretation of the events in Jesus' life?
Did not Jesus teach His greatest lessons in parables?
Please help me!
Dr. T.
-- posted by DrThomas
» shiloh - Hi Dr. T
There must be something about the name Thomas. There's another Dr. Thomas who thinks much as you do, presiding bishop of the Free Catholic Church.Anyway, you ask:
>>Is there any place for the allegorical interpretation of the events in Jesus' life?<<
Yes there is. But you have to ask are you a Christian (i.e. how much in common do you have with early people who called themselves Christians and what they believed and why they wrote the Bible) or are you simply a deist who also happens to like the Bible?
>>Did not Jesus teach His greatest lessons in parables?<<
Fascinating subject here. I will try to be brief. As you probably know, scholars think there was an "original" gospel which they call the Q gospel. A common source from which Matthew, Mark, Luke, Thomas and others drew in their own writings. The question is, did this Q gospel ever really exist, and if so, who wrote it?
I have a theory that Jesus (possibly with the aid of Mary Magdalene) wrote the Q gospel himself. In it he related some of his earlier parables -- but the entire Q gospel was intended to be a larger parable on his life, not the events of his life. Jesus himself told the story, the parable, of his own death and resurrection as a teaching tool. This is a radical possibility of course, but it is line with what you see as the truth behind the stories in the gospels, yes?
Shiloh
-- posted by shiloh
» DrThomas - The Changing Christology
Reference Text: Acts 11: 22-26. 'The Wisdom of BarnabasHi Shiloh,
You state,"But you have to ask are you a Christian?"
Barnabas and the people of Antioch saw the Jesus of Nazareth teachings as a bridge between the Jews and the Gentiles.
William Barclay in his 'Daily Bible Study Series' states "Christian means These Christ-folk"
It was a contemptious nickname given these folk by the people of Antioch. By their lives Christians made it not a name of contempt but of respect and admiration and even wonder.
My intention is one of love, dialogue, openness and compassion in our genuine quest for clarity and TRUTH.
Dr. T.
-- posted by DrThomas
» shiloh - what's in a name?
>>It was a contemptious nickname given these folk by the people of Antioch. By their lives Christians made it not a name of contempt but of respect and admiration and even wonder.<<Did they? Or did they just manage to stick around long enough for Constantine to convert and force the rest of the Empire to convert at sword-point?
If the first couple of centuries are any indication, Christian evangelism was a minimal success on the world stage. It wasn't until a conqueror of the Roman world became a Christian that it really took off.
I don't think early Christians showed through the way they lived their lives that following Christ was any great thing. There were a few martyrs -- and a lot of Christians who conducted mass in crypts and never admitted to knowing Christ in the light of day.
Christ might have been inspiring; early Christians by and large were not.
Shiloh
-- posted by shiloh
» shiloh - what's in a name II
According to Luke, this is what Jesus says you must do to get into heaven (and, presuming following Christ will get you into heaven, this is what you must do to follow Christ/be a Christian):He's chatting with the rich official. The official says, "Yes, I've kept all the ten commandments." And Jesus says, "There is still one thing left for you: sell all that you have and distribute it to the poor. Then come follow me."
According to Jesus, no one on this message board is following him, or can even begin to follow him. We all have personal computers, for one thing. Jesus said you can't even begin to follow him until you've given away everything you have first. That's a prerequisite. Has anyone here done that? If not then we're all just talking about Jesus, none of us can say we're following him.
Compassion and truth are great things, Dr. Thomas. But they don't mean you're following Christ.
Shiloh
-- posted by shiloh
» DrThomas - What is Your Personal Christology?
Scripture Reference:St. Mark 4: 40 "Jesus Stills the Storm"
To me Thomas Merton summarizes Jesus' Christology beautifully. "Christ is really present in us, more present than if He were standing before us visible to our bodily eyes, for we have become 'other Christs'. If we believe in the incarnation of the Son of God, there should be no one on earth in whom we are not prepared to see, in mystery, the Christ."
I believe that to the degree that mankind makes the mysterious invisible Christ Presence within each and every person our center of authority, identity, worship, security and meaning we will experience the kingdom of God here on earth.(St. Luke 17:20-21)
This oneness of mind will result in the evidence of the inpouring and outpouring of the Holy Spirit and it's gifts in our midst and within us. (Acts 2: 1, 46)
-- posted by DrThomas
» DebraJean - Watch those parables
Hi Shiloh,When Jesus was speaking to the rich, young ruler he was speaking specifically to that young man and answering that young man's question. Jesus often tailored his responses to the individual. This young man's riches stood between himself and his own salvation. His love for his riches were his downfall as we can see when he turned and walked away. He could NOT give up his riches.
Jesus did not tell everyone to give up material goods. Every individual must come face to face with his own materiality and consumerism. Does this or that item separate me from God? Has my country club become more important to me than my church? (This could be a very long list!) This is what the commandment "no other gods before me" translates to in our lives now.
Each individual's response to Jesus is just that--individual. We should not make up legalist rules that say all Christians must ... To say that someone is not a Christian because they own material goods goes against the teachings of the scripture and is judgmental. You cannot know what is in a person's heart regarding those goods. Only God knows a person's heart. Only God knows a person's attitude towards those goods.
Warm regards,
DJ
-- posted by DebraJean
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