Was John Brown Crazy?
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- mswogger
- not_him_again
- not_him_again
- mswogger
- not_him_again
- JudyLowe
- mswogger
- not_him_again
- sanjuan
- BROBEAR622
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» mswogger - Brian, I appreciate your questions. I don't think that the arsen
Brian, I appreciate your questions. I don't think that the arsenal was too loosly guarded, and it's obvious that the Va. militia arrived in a timely fashion...timely by 1859 standards. The most significant reason that Brown's raid failed was because he was anticipating the arrival of hundreds of slaves who he thought would rise up and join him. It was that hope that was the flaw in his plan, for they did not appear. Thus, he was well outnumbered due to that somewhat unrealistic hope not being fulfilled, and that's why he lost.Yes, on a grander scale, one could view the entire American Revolution as insane from the standpoint that the it was a bunch of poorly equipped colonists vs. the greatest army of the time. I guess we were kinda lucky that the British were also fighting another war a little closer to home, or else they could have concentrated fully on us.
Mike Swogger,
Managing Editor, History
Editor, American Civil War
-- posted by mswogger
» not_him_again - Brian Carpenter You feel that the British army of the colonial
Brian Carpenter You feel that the British army of the colonial period was the greatest army of all time?! Would you care to explain why you think so?Your points about the raid were right on. I look forward to more postings from this site.
-- posted by not_him_again
» not_him_again - Brian Carpenter Ok, I see your posting said that time, not all
Brian Carpenter Ok, I see your posting said that time, not all time. I agree with you completely. Sorry about the mistake.-- posted by not_him_again
» not_him_again - Brian Carpenter Mike, as I recall, somewhere on here I asked yo
Brian Carpenter Mike, as I recall, somewhere on here I asked you (or at least I should have) to do an article on the Battle of Cedar Creek. Will you consider that?-- posted by not_him_again
» JudyLowe - It would have been nice to have more than one source quoted. May
It would have been nice to have more than one source quoted. Maybe in a later article?I've heard great arguments on both sides. There was a good discussion on NPR's Weekend Edition a few Sundays ago. Evidently there are two movies in the works on the subject. One of the experts said that blacks really didn't take JB very seriously. (And the other expert didn't dispute him, although he was arguing some points on the other side).
I tend to think JB was pretty nutty. How he sounded afterward doesn't necessarily have much bearing since I haven't a clue what type of insanity it might have been (if it was) and how it would affect him. But some pretty off-the-wall people can sound sane and convincing when they want to. The cliche of insanity is someone who's a raving maniac, but surely in the 20th century we know that isn't true. Think of a manic depressive (bipolar disorder), as an example.
Judy
-- posted by JudyLowe
» mswogger - Brian, sorry it takes me so long on some discussions. I'll look
Brian, sorry it takes me so long on some discussions. I'll look into Cedar Creek, and shoot for near the end of the year.Mike Swogger,
Managing Editor, History
Editor, American Civil War
-- posted by mswogger
» not_him_again - Brian Carpenter No problem, if you look into Cedar Creek and do
Brian Carpenter No problem, if you look into Cedar Creek and do an article, I think the whole site will be much richer for it, and it will be worth the wait.If you get a chance, you will want to visit the battlefield, especially during the re-enactment, which I understand is quite splendid. And some good museums on the battle, and the Shenandoah Valley Campaigns in general are available there. My wife and I loved it there.
-- posted by not_him_again
» sanjuan - John Brown's Special Madness
You must be sick of dealing with this topic by now but I would like to consider the issue of John Brown's madness in the context of his times. If memory serves, the mid-nineteenth century was extraordinarily rich in terms of visionary experiences, particularly in frontier areas where religion, in general, took on a distinctively native tone. Two home born religion--Mormonism and Christian Science--came our of this era, each claiming its own foundation in visions and visitations by heavenly beings. It would not have been at all out of character for his times, if John Brown believed he had seen a vision and had acted directly on it.It also would not have been out of character with his times if he had believed himself called to a special work: a martyrdom even if his religious sensibilities had been sufficiently aroused. An intense opposition to slavery, fueled by several experiences with pro-and anti-slavery terrorism, would certainly have "pricked him on."
In biblical terms, his vision may have been as though he were "looking through a glass darkly." He could not have known the end from the beginning except to the extent that that end had been illuminated by his own contemplation of himself, the situation of slaves, the role of national institutions, and the strategic position of the forces of good and evil that worked on him and his fellow countrymen.
Yes, it seems, he was hoping for a mass insurrection of slaves. Yes, he may have thought that the taking of Harper's Ferry would have created the catalyst for and means to support that uprising. I can relate to such feelings as a child of the Cold War. I can remember when a doctrine was bandied about that all we had to do was give the Russian people the means and they would rise en masse against their Communist overlords. Wasn't that the idea behind "Radio Free Europe?" Isn't that one framework in which to evaluate the situation in Iraq?
That he proved mistaken is not proof of madness in John Brown. It is probably proof that he staked everything on a religious conception that is so alien to our highly secularized society that we can only see it in terms of insanity.
In the Old Testament there is an incident when a prophet (Elisha, I believe) is questioned by a young man who fears the army of Israel is about to be overrun by a huge enemy host. Elisha opens the young man's eyes to a spiritual realm where a vast army of angels is arrayed in support of Israel's forces. Elisha says something like: "Be not afraid for we are more than they."
John Brown would have been steeped in that tradition together with a fundamental American belief (even during Revolutionary War days) that God was on the side of right and that with His help, right would prevail. His last remarks, as you quote them, are evidence of the outcome of rather intense introspection in which John Brown realized that his "pre-judgement" of how God would accomplish His ends with regard to ending slavery was wrong. He was, however, no less certain about the cause for which he had martyred himself.
Faith, according to the religion of John Brown, was a belief in things not seen. Isn't that a special form of madness in which believers of every stripe ultimately participate?
-- posted by sanjuan
» BROBEAR622 - Re: John Brown's Special Madness
In response to message posted by sanjuan:VERY WELL SAID SAN JUAN. HOWEVER, I HAVE READ ABOUT JOHN BROWNS PLAN FOR THE RAID AT HARPERS FERRY AT LENGTH AND I BELIEVE THAT IT WAS VERY POSSIBLE FOR IT TO HAVE SUCCEEDED. THE WEST VIRGINIA HISTORICAL SOCIETY HAS AN EXCELLENT DOCUMENT AT ITS WEB PAGE THAT CAN SHINE SOME LIGHT ON MY POINT OF VIEW. THE KEY IS THAT BROWN NEVER INTENDED TO CAPTURE THE ARSENAL. HE ONLY WANTED TO TAKE GUNS FROM THE ARSENAL TO ARM THE SLAVES HE FREED. HE PLANNED TO FIGHT THE REAL BATTLE IN THE MOUNTAINS,GORILLA WARFARE IN A FORREST SETTING.THE PLAN FELL APART WHEN WAGON AND THE MEN THAT WERE COMING TO HELP LOAD AND CARRY THE GUNS FROM THE ARSENAL WERE DELAYED, CAUSING JOHN BROWN AND HIS ARMY TO WAIT TOO LONG AND GET TRAPPED AT HARPERS FERRY.
-- posted by BROBEAR622
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