self defence.christian or not

Top 4. Jan 13, 2002 3:37 PM

» purplestar - Re: Re: Re: is self defence allowed in the Bible

In response to message posted by reddeer20:

Red, I think the easiest, & least misunderstood way, to explain this would be to just give the explaination found in my NIV. Why didn't you do it since you gave the refrence? Here it is: "22:36 - a purse... a bag Until now they had been dependent on generous hospitality, but future opposition would require them to be prepared to pay their own way. buy one... An extreme figure of speech used to warn them of the perilous times about to come. They would need defense & protection, as Paul did when he appealed to Caesar (Ac 25:11) as the one who "bears the sword"(Rom 13:4). 22:37 - numbered with the transgressors... Jesus was soon to be arrested as a criminal, in fulfillment of prophetic Scripture, & his deciples would also be in danger for being his followers.
Now, that is the biblical reasoning for selfdefence if you are a child of God & claim Jesus as your Savior. Society usually draws the line of self defence in an argument or physical fight as, minimal force needed to get yourself out of danger. DON'T quote me, I'm not a lawyer! You want better clarification for a specific case, ask a good lawyer. Most of them have a free 1st consultation.

-- posted by purplestar

Top 5. Jan 13, 2002 6:28 PM

» reddeer20 - Re: Re: Re: Re: is self defence allowed in the Bible

In response to message posted by purplestar:

Pardon me, I did not include any footnotes because they are not inspired Scripture. At times they can be useful when they explain certain customs, monetary units or measurements of the time. However in this case the footnote is clearly the opinion of men.

I recognize that Jesus often used allegory and spoke in parables, and it is usually very clear when he did this. But he also spoke in plain English (so to speak) at certain times. He says here, " If you have a purse, take it, and also a bag. If you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one." What could be more clear? If he just wished to warn them of danger he could have been just as clear in saying it that plainly.

How do I answer the original question? I can't satisfactorily. Perhaps the very presence of a visible sword being carried would deter those who would attack. Or perhaps Jesus simply was saying it is okay to defend yourself if necessary. But I will not put words into the mouth of Jesus that he simply did not say.

-- posted by reddeer20

Top 6. Jan 13, 2002 7:29 PM

» Hyperionous - Re: Re: Re: is self defence allowed in the Bible

In response to message posted by reddeer20:

Theologians J. P. Moreland and Norman Geisler say that "to permit murder when one could have prevented it is morally wrong. To allow a rape when one could have hindered it is an evil. To watch an act of cruelty to children without trying to intervene is morally inexcusable. In brief, not resisting evil is an evil of omission, and an evil of omission can be just as evil as an evil of commission. Any man who refuses to protect his wife and children against a violent intruder fails them morally."

"Jesus's words on acquiring a sword (v. 36) should not be taken literally; they are a sign of the conflict and opposition which the disciples will face."{ Evangelical Commentary on the Bible, Elwell; 1989 Baker }
"These instructions are most certainly not to be taken literally, as the disciples at that time seemed to take them."{ The Layman's Bible Commentary}

Christians of our day have no problem taking Christ's command to secure moneybag and knapsack literally. They are quick to admonish their congregations to provide for their family, and especially for the needs of the church. When it comes to the sword,why refuse to believe Christ meant what He said?

Then there is the appeals to verse 38 "It is enough." Those who reject the literal interpretation of the sword read a rebuke into this phrase.

"So 38. `They said, Lord, look here are two swords!' As if Jesus had been talking about the necessity of having and using literal swords! No wonder that his answer is curt and decisive: `He said to them, Enough of that !' This reply prevents any further conversation about that subject." THE NEW TESTAMENT COMMENTARY; by William Hendriksen

THE INTERPRETER'S BIBLE, Pierce & Smith 1952, dissents:
The disciples took Jesus literally and any hypothesis that they were mistaken is too subtle to be probable. 'It is enough' was His comment that their resources were adequate for their immediate needs. as does Lenski in his INTERPRETATION OF ST. LUKES GOSPEL, p.1068

So Jesus tells the apostles to buy a Roman short sword, if necessary, even at the price of their outer robe. It is better to freeze at night than to be killed...(t)he language is not figurative...The injunctions are concrete and simply use specific examples to indicate a complete course of conduct.

I think it best to take jesus at his literal word here.

-- posted by Hyperionous

Top 7. Jan 13, 2002 7:54 PM

» purplestar - Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: is self defence allowed in the Bible

In response to message posted by reddeer20:

Red, almost any translated bible has footnotes & refrence scripture. The scholars that worked together to translate the bible, even the KJV, had to have been led by God to explain the scriptures they chose to put in the bibles. Since even the KJV was a group project of pick & choose which of the stories were considered important enough to create the most read bible in history(since it's printing), how can you be sure footnotes & refrences are opinions of men? They may have had many other biblical sources to help them put together coherent understandable explainations. I have already read 2 other such sources, my New Jerusalem Bible is a composite of many other bibles & contains books that aren't in the KJV, I have a smaller version of the Dead Sea Scrools on order, & I occasionally try to tackle learning a few new letters of the Aramaic alphabet. Aramiac was the language of common use during Jesus' time, so more than likely He spoke it. Hebrew was for more formal speech, like reading the Talmud. So, using my NIV, or any other translation, as a source for explaination, is not putting words into Jesus' mouth. Do you know how much info the original translation team ommitted from their version, or how much they rearranged it to make it understandable to the people they were writing for? Neither do I. So take every translation & bit of biblical info you hear or see with a grain of salt. The Holy Spirit will let you retain the good knowledge & will use the "wrong" knowledge for whatever means He deems necessary eventually. I don't think Jesus is going to be angry if we use a recognized bible in some way to explain something to someone. We do it all the time here when we cite book, chapter, & verse of His word smile

-- posted by purplestar

Top 8. Jan 13, 2002 8:11 PM

» purplestar - Re: Re: Re: Re: is self defence allowed in the Bible

In response to message posted by Hyperionous:

Thank you. Times now aren't a whole lot different than they were then. Now if you defend yourself too vigerously or in the wrong manner & intent can be proven, you're in as much trouble as the person that assaulted you. Something's not completely right w/the reasoning of today in a lot of cases. Interesting info you laid out for us. Basically Jesus is still trying to tell us that His Yes, means Yes, & His No, means No, & don't try to take what He says as anything else smile

-- posted by purplestar

Top 9. Jan 14, 2002 11:57 AM

» rm4jw - luke 22.36

Jesus told his apostles to get a sword for protection. In Judea the #1 job was robbery.The bible is pro-death penalty. The question for our age is:::should a christian own a gun?? ps Jesus never told Peter to throw away his sword , and they both walked on water.....go figure.

-- posted by rm4jw

Top 10. Jan 14, 2002 12:23 PM

» tiger2001 - Re: is self defence allowed in the Bible

In response to message posted by Hyperionous:

self-defence. He knew that something may go wrong and that even though it was in that time self-defense was being used we may still use it in this time and age also but only in self-defense.

-- posted by tiger2001

Top 11. Jan 14, 2002 1:01 PM

» BrotherJones - what to use in the Bible

Only the copies of the original autographs (which scholars call the original inked pages of vellum or sheep skins). So we compare the manuscripts to see if the scribes copied it correctly by matching each other. There are thousands of copies of these early manuscripts. Not the notes, or even the translations which we study. Thus it is important that we know the background of how we got the bible.

-- posted by BrotherJones

Top 12. Jan 14, 2002 6:25 PM

» Hyperionous - Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: is self defence allowed in the Bible

In response to message posted by purplestar:

This is true.In this state,it is technically legal to shoot someone at night,just for loitering in your yard or releiving themselves on your bush.

You will have a tough time in civil court.
That is definately going to far and intent could be proven,depending on where you were tried.

I remember reading recently that a Dallas man shot a homeless man from his second story window at knight.He feared for his family and the man apparently was very roudy or threatening.He was found not guilty.

A bit to far if you ask me.

-- posted by Hyperionous